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Episode 59: Live at the NYSERDA Green Innovation Showcase

On this special episode of the Experts Only podcast, CleanCapital CEO Thomas Byrne hosts a conversation at the 2019 NYSERDA Green Innovation Showcase (New York City, 11/6/19). Our guest is John Santoleri, partner and board member at Clean Energy Venture Group and Innovation Advisor for the NYSERDA Investor Advisory Board. Hear John’s insights on the state of cleantech investing and why NYSERDA is “the largest cleantech investor you never heard of”.

Listen now:
Full Transcript:

Jon Powers:

Welcome to Experts Only Podcast, sponsored by CleanCapital. You can learn more at cleancapital.com. I’m your host, Jon Powers. Each week, we explore the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance with leaders across the industry. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jon Powers:

Welcome back to Experts Only. This week’s episode is actually hosted by my partner Tom Byrne, CEO of CleanCapital. It was a live interview at NYSERDA’s Green Innovation Summit, that took place November 6th in New York City. The topic of conversation is in clean energy tech, the New York advantage.

Jon Powers:

Tom had a conversation with John Santoleri, who’s been a professional investor for the last 25 years. He’s focused on early stage investments in clean tech and fintech, serves as an innovation advisor for NYSERDA. For those that don’t know NYSERDA, it’s the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority. He helps bring an investment lens to the agency’s Cleantech Grant Program, which puts out about 80 million annually.

Jon Powers:

John also has an extensive background in the space, and his career includes 15 years at Warburg Pincus, where he invested over 800 million in equity and helped raise a further billion in third party financing. It would be a fascinating conversation, a lot happening here in New York, you can learn about through this dialogue. And as always, you can go to cleancapital.com to get more episodes. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Thom Byrne:

Thanks, everyone. It’s great to be here with my friend John to have a nice conversation about clean energy investing, broadly, and certainly how it pertains to New York and NYSERDA, and the work that John’s doing with NYSERDA.

Thom Byrne:

We did this last year. My co-founder, Jon, interviewed Alicia and we put it on our podcast as well. We have more than 3,000 listeners across the country for CleanCapital’s Experts Only Podcast. And it got really rave reviews, so we’re very fortunate to be invited back to do it again. And it’s great to be here with John to get some of his insights on the market, given his wealth of experience and expertise in clean energy.

Thom Byrne:

So I want to start it off discussing some of your background in investing, and then start tying it to what you’re doing now at NYSERDA. You started your career at Warburg Pincus. What kind of stuff were you doing there when you were there?

John Santoleri:

Yeah, so first of all, thanks Steve, and thanks NYSERDA for sponsoring this. Yeah, I started my career in investing 30 years ago this year at Warburg Pincus, where I was fortunate enough to land a spot. Warburg, for those of you who don’t know, is a diversified private equity firm, although that term has evolved over the last couple of decades. And my experience there was in growth and venture-related investing.

John Santoleri:

The other thing that is unique about the platform is, they’ve got a diversified group of industries and geographies all rolled into one fund. So as a neophyte investor, I was able to see multiple economies, multiple businesses, and each of their business cycles, and lots of different business models.

John Santoleri:

That experience really informs what I’m doing in cleantech today. For example, Warburg was unique back then in doing a series of project-based businesses, some of which were clean energy-related, or at least sustainability-related. For example, we did early water development businesses, early code gen, I was involved in, along with more traditional real estate and other project-based businesses, which are not typical for the venture capital business.

Thom Byrne:

It’s interesting because, I recall back in the mid 2000s, there was tons of venture capital flooding into renewables. And it took a lot of setbacks from those investors to realize that venture capital, in asset level investments, was not the right source of capital.

John Santoleri:

Yeah, and that was a model that, for many years, Warburg exploited. In traditional energy, but like I said, we had a water developer that we founded on the back of the Clean Water Act. And their goal was really just to develop water projects for municipalities.

Thom Byrne:

To what, cloud? Just make it compliant with the Clean Water Act?

John Santoleri:

Right.

Thom Byrne:

Water treatment.

John Santoleri:

Basically, bring together the capital so that the municipality could upgrade its facilities, deliver clean water, and basically arrange for the financing of that asset, arrange for the construction of that asset. And ultimately, refinance that asset, once you had a series of those contracts in place. And what happened with that was, it was sold to Vivendi, or whoever… this General Daiso, whoever.

Thom Byrne:

Very early stage sustainable investing.

John Santoleri:

That’s right.

Thom Byrne:

How did that end up? So you spent a number of years there, and working in the hedge fund industry. When did you first start to dabble in impact investing and clean energy investing?

John Santoleri:

I like to think that, Lionel Pincus, who is one of the founders of Warburg, was, in his own way, an early impact investor. I say that because, in the early days at Warburg, Lionel would emphasize that the investments that we were making were intended to be additive. So, create growth in the economy, create jobs and livelihoods for folks, as opposed to purely financial engineering. And that was really the roots of the firm.

John Santoleri:

A number of the investments that I worked on would be characterized today as sustainability. I mentioned the water developer, but we also invested in industrial water purification. We had an early industrial recycling company. So there were a number of things that had… we had a focus in that area, would be called environmental. I left Warburg about 15 years ago and created an impact-oriented long/short hedge fund, private equity in the public markets, with some of my former colleagues from Warburg.

Thom Byrne:

Cool.

John Santoleri:

We were not a strict ESG fund. We really had a ethical mandate. And what that meant was, we thought about the ethics of the businesses we were investing in, and figured that if a company was willing to shortchange its employees or the environment, they might get around to doing that to their shareholders. And so tried to avoid that. And the way that-

Thom Byrne:

Did you look at the underlying investments? Whether it was coal, or tobacco, or firearms, the traditional things in ESG now? Were those red flags for you?

John Santoleri:

We avoided the obvious bad stuff, but the challenge… And for those of you who are experienced in ESG reporting and metrics, that business has evolved a lot over the years, and even in the last five or 10 years. It’s still a challenge, however, to get good quantitative metrics on ESG characteristics for small and mid cap companies. So we had to sort of do it the old fashioned way and just talk to management and try to make an assessment.

John Santoleri:

But for me, that manifested itself as investments in clean tech, that ethical mandate. And for most of that fund’s life, which was really 2008 for six or seven years, it was better to be short than long, for the most part, in the clean energy world, sadly. We did make investments in things like SunPower. When Total invested, that turned out to be a fantastic opportunity.

Thom Byrne:

Did you invest in the point that Total came in, or?

John Santoleri:

Well, if you remember back then, Total made an investment, a small, I forget the percentage, but a small equity investment, but it committed a massive amount of debt support to SunPower. The wheels were coming off the solar market at that point.

Thom Byrne:

That’s when First Solar and SunPower stocks went from… I remember First Solar at 400 or something crazy.

John Santoleri:

All of them down 80%. We had the flexibility to be able to invest in a bond traunch that was small, that none of the other big players could invest in. My assessment was that, Total had committed a few billion dollars of credit support, and a few tens of millions to equity support. That’s what I think folks missed was that, it was unlikely that they were going to let this company go, just because the stock price had gone down. And they ended up-

Thom Byrne:

Doing fine.

John Santoleri:

Doing fine. And obviously, increasing their investment significantly.

Thom Byrne:

So in your hedge fund, you’re starting to do some things related to ESG. How does that fast-forward into sort of.

John Santoleri:

NYSERDA and focus on clean energy.

Thom Byrne:

In the last few years, yeah.

John Santoleri:

Well, like I said, it was better to be short than long in many cases. So we started to invest in more opportunistic private market areas. So for example, Solar eX, some solar financing. That led me to conclude that it was really… If I was going to be effective in having an impact, it really made sense to return to the private markets from the public markets. There really wasn’t any opportunity out there in the public markets.

John Santoleri:

Around the same time, I was introduced to to John Rhodes, who was Alicia Barton’s predecessor at NYSERDA. What’s fascinating about NYSERDA, for the folks who are listening to the podcast, many of you know this, but started in the ’70s in response to the oil crisis back then, really, as the name implies, as a research and development outfit. And the mission has evolved substantially.

John Santoleri:

A lot of people don’t really have a sense of what NYSERDA is. But today it spends $800 million a year supporting clean energy initiatives in New York State. And the group that is sponsoring this event today, and that I’ve worked closely with, The Innovation Group, what used to be called the R and D group, is about a 10th of that budget. But still, $80 million a year invested in stuff that looks very much like early stage clean tech.

John Santoleri:

We’ve said this at these kinds of events before, but the innovation group at 80 million bucks a year is the sort of biggest clean tech venture capital firm that you’ve never heard of, is the way I like to think about it. I sort of made a transition from a research-focused effort to a commercialization-focused effort in their innovation effort over the last five to seven years.

John Santoleri:

What I was pleased to find when I got to NYSERDA is, there’s a incredibly deep bench of technical talent. NYSERDA is a authority, not an agency. So this is a different kind of an animal. The people there are extremely well educated, and very deep on the technical sides of the business. And they were evolving that practice to assess and figure out the best investments that would have commercial outcomes.

Thom Byrne:

Why is that so important?

John Santoleri:

Well, if you look at the goals of NYSERDA, particularly in the innovation side, they need to help fulfill the aggressive policy agenda that has just been enacted most recently with the climate leadership and Community Protection Act. Net zero by 2050. And it is not going to happen if we sponsor a lot of research papers, right?

Thom Byrne:

Sure.

John Santoleri:

What needs to happen is, solutions need to be deployed scale. NYSERDA spends a lot of money deploying established solutions. But I think we all know that’s not going to be enough, right? We don’t yet have all the technology that is needed. So innovation plays a critical role in funding those technologies that can get to market and can get commercialized. I think the challenge is, to figure out how you apply that money in the best way so that it does indeed result in impact.

Thom Byrne:

It’s interesting, do you think that there’s a lack of capital in the breakthrough technologies, whether it’s public money or private money? Or, are we suffering from a lack of capital in known technologies? Do we need more money coming into solar and wind, as opposed to the breakthrough technology that we don’t even know what it is yet? Or, both?

John Santoleri:

Well, there’s a lot of work out there. Morgan Stanley just published a paper that said, we need, what, $50 trillion of investment globally to-

Thom Byrne:

I’ve seen many estimates, and they’re all in the trillions. Two trillion a year is what we at CleanCapital always say. Some people say 50 trillion over the next 30 years.

John Santoleri:

Right.

Thom Byrne:

Either way, it’s a large number.

John Santoleri:

It’s a large number. What’s not in those numbers necessarily is what it’s going to cost us if we don’t do it. There’s certainly a lot of estimates of that. Although, up until recently, I think those were hard for people to get their arms around. Today, if your fire insurance policy in California went up from $600 a month to $2,000 a month, you might be more willing to pay an extra 20 bucks for renewable energy as an alternative to paying thousands of dollars per year.

Thom Byrne:

Or, if you’re a shareholder of any of the utilities in California these days as well, you start to notice some of the climate impacts a little bit more acutely.

John Santoleri:

Yeah. But to get back to your question, I think there are gaps at a number of levels, certainly. Some of my colleagues at Clean Energy Ventures have done a recent paper looking at the mismatch in early stage funding. That’s a frequent conversation topic at these kinds of events. So that is still there. I also think that-

Thom Byrne:

Mismatch? Can you clarify that a little bit?

John Santoleri:

If you look at the amount of capital that is coming into the market, or is in the market for various phases, you play in an area where it’s a commercially deployed, and it’s got a warranty on the piece of equipment that is generating whatever the revenue is, there’s still a need there. Folks like the Green Bank are helping fill that gap.

John Santoleri:

But on the early end, there’s still a mismatch in terms of the amount of funding that’s going towards that early commercialization effort. I don’t think we have all the answers today. If you look at the projections that are out there, there are still breakthroughs that are required, particularly around, say, carbon capture. That’s an area where, even over the last couple of years, it’s gone from, I think, much more theoretical, to things that are on the cusp of being commercial businesses.

Thom Byrne:

And there’s very few investors that are putting money into… Breakthrough Ventures, which is that large, I believe, $2 billion group, is doing a whole bunch of interesting things in storage and nuclear. But there’s not a ton of money going into those breakthrough opportunities.

John Santoleri:

There are a handful of folks, many of whom are here in the room, that are putting money into this sector. Certainly, where NYSERDA plays is in that area. What I’ve learned, I’ve been with NYSERDA now for two years as a consultant working with their innovation group, and in many ways it mirrors the efforts that a venture capital firm goes through, in terms of figuring out where to invest its money.

John Santoleri:

They’ve really got to look at a landscape, identify gaps, figure out which gaps can be addressed with the application of money. Then, go out there and find deals, or attract deals in their case, attract companies to apply for grants, select those grants, diligence those grants, and then manage them. That lines up pretty closely with the efforts that a venture player goes through in this area. As I said, NYSERDA, at $80 million a year in innovation alone is supporting that early stage effort.

John Santoleri:

I won’t go into all the details. There’s a map over here to my right, and folks on the podcast can find this information at NYSERDA. But that innovation budget, that $80 million a year is spent both in direct support, in terms of grants for companies, and indirect support for events like this, and through the network of incubators and accelerators, and the EIR program, as well, to support companies.

John Santoleri:

So as an example, I was in a meeting recently, and I think Ray is here, but with a really innovative company in the bioremediation business. And we were sitting around the table with a seasoned industry expert from Columbia, and his right-hand person who is helping on the business side. But also at the table, was a very experienced chemical industry executive, who knows this market 40 years.

John Santoleri:

Our friend Heidi from C-BIP, who is skilled at helping companies eat their broccoli, so to speak. Do all that work that needs to be done, in order to create a viable business. And myself. And as I thought about it, this is exactly what I would have done at Warburg, if I were in the same boat. I would have brought these kinds of resources to there. And you couldn’t pay for those resources. I think that I’m doing it, and the other people around the table are doing it because of a concern about climate change. And NYSERDA is the one making that happen. That’s the kind of support that they’re giving to companies. And it’s really a venture creation kind of process.

Thom Byrne:

Is NYSERDA, or, in other states, the equivalent, is that a critical piece to unlocking some of the innovation? Would private investment not otherwise be there?

John Santoleri:

My view on clean energy investing and the need for capital is that, the challenges, while they’re significant, I think, are… I think the issues are as much cyclical as they are secular. There are plenty of industries that have very difficult sales cycles, long sales cycles, and very challenging customers, and very hard technology problems and scale-up.

John Santoleri:

What I’ve seen over my career is, we’ve seen cycles in every single growth industry that there is. Going back to Warburg Pincus, the benefit of growing up there was, although I wasn’t investing in biotech, I saw the cycle and got to see when my partners in biotech basically… the peak when everybody was investing, they were going home early. And hopefully, after the crash, they were headlining themselves up to make those investments. The same thing really has gone on in clean tech. Well, trying to find investments in the public markets, you’re really making venture investments in Kior, or any of these companies that were really a science experiment, that have gotten funded in the public markets. I think NYSERDA plays a critical role.

John Santoleri:

For the folks on the podcast, the aggregate budget, as I said, $800 million a year, the balance of the budget beyond innovation supports all sorts of deployment of existing assets in New York State. Green Bank is part of that. The Green Bank has financed early stage companies who are aggregating assets. I’ve got an efficiency finance company for example, that we chatted about, which is…

John Santoleri:

At the end of the day it’s a specialty finance originator, and they just happen to be originating contracts that are backed by the savings that are generated through efficiency. And the Green Bank was willing to underwrite that. I hope we grow out of the Green Bank very soon and can underwrite that with just a more traditional source of financing, and ultimately securitize those contracts.

Thom Byrne:

That tracks the history of clean energy and the public partnership aspect of growing clean energy. I think back to ’08. As we came out of the recession from that, Obama passed the American Recovery Act with cash grant, the 1603 Cash Grant, the Department of Energy loan guarantees, a whole bunch of other incentives.

Thom Byrne:

And that’s really what sprung solar and wind into where it is now. That gave it the wind at its back, pardon the pun, to get it to a critical mass. I think there is this public need to really get the commercialization that you’re discussing, to get that going, to get momentum behind it, for sure.

John Santoleri:

Yeah. And build enough scale so that it becomes something that that the traditional finance markets can get their arms around. At some level, my efficiency company just has a series of contracts from consumers that have FICO scores. And it really doesn’t matter whether that contract is a auto loan, or a solar loan, or a credit card loan, or an efficiency loan. It’s really just a consumer loan. And the sooner that becomes mainstream, the better we all off will be, I think.

Thom Byrne:

Any hesitation that the capital markets has to it is that it’s just, they’re so familiar with auto loans? And it’s now familiarizing themselves with something that just looks or feels a little different?

John Santoleri:

I don’t know what your experience has been here. My experience is that, capital markets, they don’t really care. If the money is green, so to speak, it doesn’t matter. So we’ve seen all sorts of innovations and plenty of disasters in financial products. Everything from subprime mortgages… Subprime auto loans were a challenge, but they didn’t bring down the financial system. But they are still there. So there are plenty of subprime car laons that are our issue. That’s become a mainstream asset class, if you will. But if you go back 15 years, it was a unique asset class that people didn’t understand. And therefore, it was much more expensive to finance it, and you couldn’t finance it at scale. Much like solar. You’ve been through the challenges there, and ultimately-

Thom Byrne:

It appears risky for the early investors 10 years ago. And then gradually, people are wandering wondering how this has all of a sudden become a relatively low yield investment now. And you’ve got private equity investors, we talked about this, who no longer really have a place in solar, or not the place that they think they did, because it’s no longer a 12% returning asset class. It’s looking more like the debt, or lower yielding investments that are out there, infrastructure assets.

John Santoleri:

In a way it should be, because it’s very predictable. And ultimately, that should drive a low cost of capital.

Thom Byrne:

It’s relatively predictable.

John Santoleri:

Right. And there’s where some innovations can come in. So another company that, helped by NYSERDA, but that we’ve got investment in is, looking at insurance solutions to mitigate that variability that you’re talking about.

Thom Byrne:

Yeah, and that’s Energetic. Am I correct? They’re a great company. We’ve spoken to a bunch. And again, creating a product that the capital markets will find attractive. Which is, how do you ensure the production of these assets, the revenue of these assets at the end of the day? That’s such a novel, but important maturation of the industry, to create something for the capital markets.

Thom Byrne:

Going back to your clean energy investing, through the lens of NYSERDA, what kind of stuff are we seeing out there, that’s interesting, that is more forward-thinking than, it’s funny to say, the boring solar and wind stuff, that we’ve been doing for the last decade?

John Santoleri:

Right. No. It’s extraordinary to look back at the evolution, the cost curve in those markets. So clearly, in terms of climate impact, offshore wind is clearly a big area. Less a place for early stage investors to play. But certainly, in terms of NYSERDA’s efforts, a big deal. One of the benefits that I’ve been able to have from my perch at NYSERDA is really, to see a broad range of very early stage ideas that are getting to market. I would say that, there is a whole sector of, what I’ll call incremental types of improvements.

John Santoleri:

So components that will be more efficient, that will enable, whether it’s storage or electrolysis or carbon capture. There’s a wealth of ideas coming out of the universities. Clearly, storage is a problem that must be solved, in order for this system to work. All sorts of efforts going on there. I’m actively engaged with a nice upported company that’s developing a alternative to lithium in a sort of short and medium-term storage, and is making great progress in advancing a roadmap there.

Thom Byrne:

What’s the technology? Can you disclose it, or?

John Santoleri:

Sure. This is a company working on zinc-manganese dioxide. It’s basically the same technology that is in, and has been for years, in an alkaline battery, that today powers your remote, or smoke detector, perhaps. But the trick is making that recyclable, and then being able to manufacture it at scale. Even in the last couple of years, I think there was a perception that it was game over with lithium.

John Santoleri:

But as that market has expanded, some of the problems have surfaced, in terms of both costs and safety. They’re both related. In order to make it safe, it adds a layer of costs that is a challenge. So there’s a lot of vectors to try to solve that problem, but it’s going to take some time to get them implemented. And it’s not clear they fit into the existing manufacturing pathway, which then creates pathways for other solutions.

John Santoleri:

So clearly, storage. Carbon capture, I think, is early in its development.

Thom Byrne:

Are you thinking carbon capture, sticking some sort of device on a coal plant and making it clean?

John Santoleri:

It’s a little bit all the above. I think it’s going to be very hard to pull the carbon out of the air, but that may happen.

Thom Byrne:

I have heard some crazy stories or business models, where they’re actually trying to send something up into the atmosphere and literally draw down carbon. Are you investing in that yet?

John Santoleri:

Well, there’s all sorts of efforts. No, no. The things that interests me in terms of investing, and we haven’t talked much about clean energy ventures, and I’ll spend a few minutes on that if I can. We’re interested in solutions that it can have a big impact on CO2 reduction, much like… Very lined with NYSERDA’s goals. For that you really need science that’s advanced to the point where, customers can validate it, or at least are starting to validate it. So storage is clearly an area of interest. I think software to manage the complexity of a grid that is distributed is a huge area of opportunity.

Thom Byrne:

Great, yeah. And there’s a lot of companies out there, who are now focusing on everything from front-of-the-meter to behind-the-meter grid management through software.

John Santoleri:

And that’s a big focus at NYSERDA as well. NYSERDA, as I said, they go through a process where, they’re looking at, where are the gaps? There are folks here today from buildings and from storage efforts. And cutting across all that is their tech-to-market group, which is sponsoring this event here. That’s really modeled after ARPA-E. And the focus of that group is, to ensure that commercialization is a priority.

Thom Byrne:

Tell us a little bit about your investing in Clean Energy Venture Group.

John Santoleri:

Yeah. Clean Energy Ventures is a somewhat unique animal, if you will. It combines both, a committed capital fund, along with an angel group, and has the distinction of 30 experienced operators, primarily. And also, some financiers like myself. A decade, plus track record of success in clean energy, which is somewhat unique.

John Santoleri:

That was the catalyst to be able to raise a hundred million dollar committed capital fund for series A and seed stage investments in clean energy. I got to them, actually, was initiated, in a way, by NYSERDA, through Pat Sapinsley at the Urban Future Labs, who introduced me and a few of my colleagues… Today, colleagues, but folks that I’d met, to create a New York office for the Clean Energy Venture Group.

John Santoleri:

So I met Dave Miller and Dan Goldman back in 2016, 2017. They were, at that time, working to raise their fund. I launched the New York office with a Jean-Noel Poirier, who is here today, and Tom Blum. Today, we’ve got seven or eight members in New York going to 10 or 12, and 25 members in Boston. And we invest as one group, although we’ve got, like I said, two sides. We’ve got experienced angel group and a committed capital fund that gives us the fire power to sort of stay the course.

John Santoleri:

That was something I didn’t have to worry about back in the Warburg days. But it’s a critical challenge, particularly in clean energy today, having the capital to get to at least break even.

Thom Byrne:

Which is why it’s nice that NYSERDA is a pocket of cash to put into the startups. Just as we wrap it up, if you had to cast a wand at the different offerings that a NYSERDA can provide, what do you think is the important types of capital that are needed in the marketplace? For our podcast listeners in particular, what opportunities do they have from NYSERDA?

John Santoleri:

That’s a tough question to answer, because NYSERDA supports such a broad range of activities. And in fact, I often get questioned from folks like, I don’t know what it is. Help me out, help me figure it out. I think that’s an opportunity and a challenge for NYSERDA. Like I said, there is 700 or so million dollars a year spent deploying clean energy technologies in New York State. That’s established products, but which need to get out there in the market.

John Santoleri:

On the innovation side, if you’re innovating, you ought to be in New York State. Because, New York State has, arguably, the most aggressive climate agenda of all the states. Policy is perhaps world-leading. So if you want to be in storage, you ought to be in New York State. If you have grid solutions, you need to be in New York State. I’ve actually been encouraged that, both through my CBG seat, as well as my seat here at NYSERDA, the amount of inbound traffic from folks in other jurisdictions and other states has really exploded over the last six or so months.

Thom Byrne:

I agree with that.

John Santoleri:

I think it’s partly due to the policy initiatives, and partly just people starting to understand the amount of support that NYSERDA provides.

Thom Byrne:

Agree. Over the last few years, I just think of, like I said to you earlier, where New York’s come over just the last five years. From being behind the curve on renewables and state support, to now being a leader. It’s really come a long way. John, thank you very much for your time. It’s been a pleasure. Thanks, John.

Jon Powers:

I hope you enjoyed the conversation and learned a lot about what’s happening here in New York. The New York State Energy and Research Development Authority is doing some really cutting-edge work to help drive New York’s clean economy. We’ve had other members of the team on, here at Experts Only, and hope to have some more on in the future.

Jon Powers:

Again, you can learn more about some of our episodes at cleancapital.com. As always, we’re looking for good folks to interview, so please feel free to send them my way. And as always, I look forward to continuing the conversation.

Jon Powers:

Thanks for listening in today’s conversation. Find more episodes on cleancapital.com, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe and leave us a five star review. We look forward to continuing our conversation on energy, innovation, and finance with you.