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Experts Only Podcast #99:

With Climate Investment Expert Ted Roosevelt V.

[ Founding Partner, Redwood Grove Capital ]

Listen now:

Transcript

Jon Powers:

Welcome to Experts Only podcast sponsored by CleanCapital. You learn at cleancapital.com. I’m your host Jon Powers. Each week we explore the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance with leaders across the industry. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jon Powers:

Welcome back to experts only. I’m your host Jon Powers today. We’re talking to Ted Roosevelt, who’s a managing partner and founder of Redwood Grove Capital. Ted and I explore a little bit of the history of what’s going on in sustainability and climate investing.

Jon Powers:

Ted comes from a lens of capital markets, because he spent a career in with Lehman Brothers and Barclays, but focusing on things like distressed research and leveraged finance groups. So that experience has really helped Ted look at the market today and find out where opportunities are to invest. But also he has some great ideas about how we can improve data and make investing in climate and ESG that much more accessible for all. I hope you enjoy the conversation and as always you can get more episodes at cleancapital.com.

Jon Powers:

Ted, thanks so much for joining me at Experts Only.

Ted Roosevelt:

Well, thank you for having me, Jon.

Jon Powers:

So we have a lot to cover today, but I do want to step back and get your roots. You grew up in New York. Growing up in New York city, what got you interested in the environment, climate change?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah, I mean it goes back even to my birth almost. I was raised by two environmentalists. Their parents were environmentalists and so forth back actually many number of generations. So I can’t point to an inflection moment where I went from not being an environmentalist to being an environmentalist.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

That was something that was part of the kitchen table conversation since I can remember.

Jon Powers:

And you know, I had the chance to meet your dad over a decade ago, who’s also in the finance space. Growing up in New York, is it just natural you’re going to move into finance? Like what triggered your interest there?

Ted Roosevelt:

You know, I think that’s… I was also, my father was in finance and so that was something that I was introduced to at an early age. But you know, when I graduated from college in 1998 and it felt like there was a pretty steady path into finance at that point. And I don’t know that I put.

Jon Powers:

You were a political science major?

Ted Roosevelt:

I was a political science major.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

But I don’t, I mean, I would love to tell you that I had a 20 year career plan when I graduated from college. I think it was more inertia than anything else. I was going the path of least resistance.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. And did you go to get your MBA at Stanford immediately or was that later?

Ted Roosevelt:

No, that was much later. And actually part of the sort of origin story of the firm Redwood Grove Capital, it was many years later I went back. And I didn’t get my MBA, I got a Master’s in Science, which is a slightly different program.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

And it was really a moment to pause in my career to think about climate and climate investing.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. I’m going to get to that origin story in a second, because we talked about this a little bit before. But you know, you came out of school, you ended up back in New York City, you were working at Lehman Brothers and then started working sort of throughout different firms in, in New York.

Jon Powers:

You know, in that next sort of decade, like where did you begin to really see the opportunity around things like climate tech investing? I mean, it’s hot now for sure. But really a lot of folks have started to believe in the concept of ESG well over a decade ago. And while we’re at the apex of it today, you know, I know you started seeing the opportunity much sooner.

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. So you would actually, my career was in traditional finance. I graduated from college, went to work on distrust research, as you mentioned at Lehman Brothers, was there for a little over a decade and then ultimately went to a hedge fund, a fixed income hedge fund called GoldenTree. And didn’t really have any direct exposure to ESG investing at the time.

Ted Roosevelt:

But in my non-professional career, I was spending time working on NGO boards that were focused on climate. Because as I mentioned, this was something that I’d been interested in my entire life.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

And, you know, I would say about eight years ago… I’d always been, I had been acutely aware of climate change, but there seemed to be an inflection in how climate scientists were talking about climate and the urgency with which we needed to address it. And I realized that we had at that point a 30 year forecast on climate change, which is probably the most accurate forecast in human history that had proven to be broadly correct.

Ted Roosevelt:

And you know, that urgency and having this forecast that had proven to be very accurate, led me to start asking the question, should this forecast be something that investors are looking at? And does the capital markets play a role in solving the issue of climate change?

Ted Roosevelt:

And that was sort of the initial soup that I was sort of swimming around in. And I went and talked to the folks at GoldenTree, as well as across the industry that I had friends that I’d made over the years. And I found that when I asked the question, “Is climate change something that ought to be incorporated into an investment process? Not necessarily every single company, not necessarily every sector, but are there areas where it might be insightful?” And you know, these are folks that will go down any single rabbit hole they can find to be right 52% per percent of a time.

Ted Roosevelt:

I mean, this is, people don’t need certainties in investing. They just want higher probabilities. And what I found was the response was pretty universally, a blank stare and a pat on the head.

Ted Roosevelt:

I mean, it was as if I had suggested maybe we should incorporate Roman Catholicism into the investment process. There just, there wasn’t a role and more importantly, it wasn’t worth investigating.

Ted Roosevelt:

And that’s when I resigned from my firm and actually went into the year doing this fellowship at the Stanford Business School. Because I didn’t have the answer to that question. You know, that that climate necessarily was something that ought to be, that was investible, particularly from an economic standpoint, not from a moral standpoint. And I spent the better part of that year really investigating that question.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. Talk me through that for a second. So you’re a year at Stanford, you’re in sort of the heart of innovation in Silicon Valley. Obviously there’s so much moving. What timeframe is this?

Ted Roosevelt:

So this is in 2014, 2015 timeframe.

Jon Powers:

So things like clean energy moving, the clean tech bubble, probably at that point had burst, right?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yep.

Jon Powers:

So VCs were not really jumping at clean energy. You know, what in that sort of discovery period for you were you able to sort of walk out and say, okay, I think the data’s becoming clear, there is investing [mythology 00:07:09] here we can start to incorporate it into underwriting.

Jon Powers:

Like was there a light bulb moment there? Or was it just a set of sort of building confidence in terms of what the opportunity would be?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. I think that the light bulb was actually probably a counterintuitive light bulb moment. So first, you’re absolutely right that the clean tech movement was persona non grata in Silicon Valley in this time period.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

It’s sort of post pretty big bust. And, but I was actually looking across different investment styles from VC to the public equity market. And my presumption going into year of analysis was the public equity markets are highly efficient. There probably isn’t a huge opportunity there. And maybe there’s an opportunity to kind of pick up the scraps in the VC space.

Ted Roosevelt:

And what I found was there were a lot of people that were focused on the VC space already, that were starting to recognize that there were some opportunities there, and definitely in the growth, private equity space. And so then I turned my attention to the public equity space and I didn’t… The sort of first question is, is there inefficiency in this market?

Ted Roosevelt:

And my thought was, well, there’s ESG investing has definitely percolated up as a topic. There’s more flows going in that direction. And so I started to look at who was doing it and how they were doing it. And it led me very quickly to the ESG data aggregators.

Ted Roosevelt:

And what I found very quickly was the ESG data aggregators were producing information that was in my assessment highly insufficient to making true investment decisions. So if you start with the premise or the proposition, can I find an economic insight here? I would posit that the ESG data was not helping you find whatever that was, particularly around climate change.

Ted Roosevelt:

And what I found is that the vast majority of public equity managers were relying on that data to make those decisions. Now, that data is the holy grail for the investment universe. We want it to be excellent. We want it to auditable. We want it to be standardized. We want it to be something that investors can use, because it will create an efficiency in terms of the allocation of capital around the true cost of things like climate change. So I support the movement. The problem is is that the data isn’t there yet. Still not there four or five years later.

Jon Powers:

Right. Still there. Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

And that’s when I started realizing that, hey, there might actually be a real substantive economic opportunity, because what we were already starting to see, and this was from conversations with climate science was the very real world economic impacts of climate change. And on the most basic level, you’re seeing at in increased damage annually from storms and wildfires. But you’re also seeing it across industries and across sectors.

Ted Roosevelt:

And as far as I could tell, very few investors in the public equity market were thinking about that when they were making investment decisions. And that is exactly where I came to believe the opportunity existed.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. That’s interesting. I mean, obviously the latest trends that we’re seeing around ESG and climate to the insurance companies has not been anything new. They’ve been looking at this stuff now for a while. But you’re right, the public market is definitely, we’re not there and not coming around. So at what point that evolution you’re you said, okay, I’m going to start my own firm here and go after this?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. So at this point, I’m sort of pulling on a thread and starting to find opportunity. I’m working with a number of professors at Stanford who were extremely helpful in helping me organize my thoughts. And one of them introduced me to my co-founder, a gentleman named Greg Serrurier, who had been working at Dodge & Cox, which is a $280 billion predominantly public equity manager.

Ted Roosevelt:

And he had had at that point the access and the insight and the ability to sit down with the CEOs and CFOs of Fortune 500 companies and sort of having gone through a similar evolution himself was asking them, particularly in areas where climate was clearly material for their business. And just the sort of level set. When I say material for their business, I’m not talking about 30 years out. This is sort of in a three to five year time period.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

Reasonable people can presume that this is going to have an impact, an economic impact on their business.

Ted Roosevelt:

And what he discovered when he sat down with, with these CEOs and CFOs is that there was a massive divergence in how different management teams were approaching this problem, ranging from really denying the existence of the problem altogether…

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

…to deploying significant amounts of capital to help the businesses pivot to address these issues. And so when I sat down with Greg, we really started to formulate, sit down and figure out how we could build an investment process that was repeatable, that was built on fundamental investment practices, but that could also incorporate climate science into that model where and when it had an economic impact, that would give us an insight that we felt that the rest of the market wasn’t getting.

Ted Roosevelt:

And when we finished working on that and concluded, hey, we think we actually were finding something here, that’s when we realized it was worth starting a fund.

Jon Powers:

And when you went to market to raise with that thesis, what type of response did you get from the [LP 00:12:35] community?

Ted Roosevelt:

It’s really amazing-

Jon Powers:

And again, what time… is this like ’17?

Ted Roosevelt:

This is end of ’16, beginning of ’17.

Jon Powers:

Yep.

Ted Roosevelt:

And it’s quite stark. The evolution and the arc that investors have gone through even in the last four years.

Jon Powers:

Totally, agree. It’s a tipping point that’s happened.

Ted Roosevelt:

There was a tipping point and I’m not, I don’t know if it was Larry Fink’s letter or what it was, but there was a moment where there was a recognition.

Ted Roosevelt:

I would say that when we first started talking to investors… And this wasn’t universal, obviously, because we were able to raise enough capital to launch the fund. But when we first started talking to investors, the significant… the typical response was, this is really not an investible thesis, climate is not something that belongs in an investment process. You know, maybe you can get some foundation money because you’re kind of mission aligned, type of thing.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

But that this was not… I think there was real disbelief that this was a serious investment thesis that was going to generate alpha over time.

Jon Powers:

And just to paint a picture for a second for folks, when you were… Your view was we were going to raise X and we’re going to deploy it into what type of companies? Just to help paint a picture for folks.

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. So the thought process, if you think about, let’s just say the S&P 500, for example. About 4% of it’s invested in is energy companies, E&P companies, the ExxonMobils, the Chevrons of the world. That’s down significantly over the last couple of decades. But it’s a pretty small portion of the S&P 500.

Ted Roosevelt:

And then a even smaller percentage is kind of true clean tech companies. We really weren’t interested in the E&P companies, in part because the valuations on their reserves were not things that we could underwrite, given the need to divest away from fossil fuels.

Ted Roosevelt:

But then you have the 96% of the rest of the economy. And they’re all users of fossil fuels, and how they transition away from that use of fossil fuels is one area where you’re going to have an economic impact. And so we look at the, essentially, the rest of the market from clean tech to the E&P space to understand how companies are making that transition.

Ted Roosevelt:

There’s no question that there are certain sectors where materiality is higher and those tend to be where we focus most of our energy. And, but we also look, just to make sure that we have a balanced portfolio, at names where material materiality can be lower, but we want to make sure we’re investing in management teams that have demonstrated leadership around climate change.

Jon Powers:

Right. So if the leadership team can understand the risk they’re facing and understand that they need a plan of action, that it may not be the core of what they do day to day, but recognizing it effects maybe their supply chains or their manufacturing facilities or whatever.

Ted Roosevelt:

That’s right. That’s absolutely right.

Jon Powers:

Fascinating. So I want to continue down this path for a second. But I do want to step back, you know, you wrote an article not too long ago, which I thought was really powerful about also the inaction here. I think the opportunity around where investing is going is, where the conversation will definitely go… But I think that there is a recognition that as the economy continues to grow, that as climate change continues to get worse, if we’re not making these… If we’re not thinking about climate in our investing, that the risk is far greater than obviously if we do. Can you talk a little bit about that inaction and why that is so scary if we don’t continue to take the action that we’re starting to do now?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. Well, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to… And I think there’s a slightly different question you’re asking that I’m going to answer first and then, and try to answer your question.

Jon Powers:

Sure.

Ted Roosevelt:

Which is, what is the motivation for the inaction? Why has the issue of climate change, just even away from investing, been one where there’s been so much resistance, particularly in the United State when the scientific evidence has been significantly overwhelming and quite a bit more compelling than things that we take for granted? And we understand, for example, the science behind climate change much better than we understand the link between smoking and lung cancer. But you don’t have 50% of the pot population saying lung cancer is some sort of Chinese hoax. I mean, it’s just…

Ted Roosevelt:

And you know, there’s a political component there. But there’s also, and I think it’s interesting that our thesis… it was helpful that our thesis sort of developed not in lockstep, but sort of relatively similar timing around kind of, as we got smarter on behavioral economics and some of the limitations of how the human brain thinks about risk.

Ted Roosevelt:

And one of the things that behavioral economics will demonstrate very quickly is that an issue like climate change, where you have a perceived far off risk where the impacts are not necessarily immediately direct in your life is going to be massively underweighted. And we are significantly predisposed to ignoring that risk.

Ted Roosevelt:

So it’s not just a political issue. It’s actually just the structure of the problem is highly problematic for people to deal with. And that’s due to our evolution and how we prioritize things that are kind of in our immediate future. And, you know, a bear is a lot scarier than climate change, right?

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

And that’s, that’s the way that our brains are wired and frankly not totally irrational.

Jon Powers:

It’s also why we’re not good at preventative healthcare, right?

Ted Roosevelt:

Exactly.

Ted Roosevelt:

But I think, to answer your question, the issue of…

Jon Powers:

Just pull that, sorry…

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah.

Jon Powers:

So are you saying that a lot of that inaction was because companies were struggling to look that far out, understand the risk and then translate that risk into sort of necessary actions? Or that there was a mix of that and as you said, there was, you know, probably just a… at some level a… I don’t want to say a disbelief because that’s not the right way to put it, but just a misunderstanding of what those risks could be to them?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah, I mean I was saying it more just in human terms as opposed to in corporate terms. But corporations are obviously run by humans so they face the same challenge. I think the sort of simple list way to think about it is that short term… and the behavioral economics has also shown this, but short term costs are weighed much more heavily than long term costs.

Jon Powers:

Totally.

Ted Roosevelt:

Future long term costs. And so there’s quite a bit more wrapped up into why we missed this, but at the very basic level, the short term costs, particularly if you’re a CEO of a company, your life spans maybe seven, eight years, you see costs that are maybe outside of that window and you don’t necessarily feel like you’re going to be rewarded for lowering… what might be perceived as lowering profitability in the short term.

Ted Roosevelt:

I would argue, in fact, there are a number of tailwinds that are being missed by companies would increase profitability, increase return on invested capital, that are being missed as well. And that may be for a variety of other reasons. But on the whole, there’s no question that a significant portion of the executive suite is not accounting for the true weight of climate change right now.

Jon Powers:

Interesting. So, I mean, we can continue to talk about the risk side, but I think there’s been a lot of, a lot of literature about the missed opportunities. But let’s switch over to the opportunity. Because you guys are starting to really think about investing, going forward.

Jon Powers:

Looking at where the potential is in the market, not just today… I like to look out to 2230 quite a bit, and really what this next decade is going to mean to us, for two reasons. One, to actually address climate change, we’ve got to be going full steam ahead here over the next decade. Like where do you see the investing opportunities now, looking out through sort of the end of the end of the decade?

Jon Powers:

Like as people are understanding ESG, the cultural revolution around this… the Greta Thunberg effect is in full force, right? Boardrooms are not just thinking about it, they’re being forced to think about it by shareholder action. You know, we probably have reached that tipping point, hopefully. And now the question now is like, okay, how great can the change be to get us over the next 10 years? And where do you sort of see the opportunities here?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. Well, it’s a really interesting question. I think the… and I’m just going to pull on one thing that you said just sort of around ESG investing. Because I do think today a lot of ESG investing is actually not meeting the expectations of what investors think they’re getting.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

Which is a shame because a quarter… one out of every four dollars that’s being invested in the public equity markets is going to ESG investing. Which means that’s a huge amount of…

Jon Powers:

One out of ever four dollars. Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

And it’s a huge amount of influence into the capital markets, in getting corporations to do the right thing.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. Just one second. So one out of every four dollars, and really the data’s still not clear yet, right? The metrics on what they’re getting, all this stuff is still very opaque.

Ted Roosevelt:

That’s right. And so I think investors feel like they’re getting better ESG companies. The challenge is, and this is a sort of a topic of how conversation we can spend hours on, but the punchline is I’m not sure that they are necessarily getting better E, S and G companies.

Ted Roosevelt:

Just at the very high level of that, if you look at the ESG data aggregators, there’s very little correlation between what is a top ranked E, S or G company among one versus the other. And the equivalent of that is, if Moody’s, Fitch and S&P were rating someone’s corporate debt and one rated it an A and somebody else rated it a C and everybody just said, “Oh well, I’m fine with the A,” that just isn’t the way that the world works in kind of traditional investing. It shouldn’t work that way in ESG. There has to be greater correlation among the data aggregators.

Ted Roosevelt:

And then two, not only is the correlation has to be higher, but it actually has to be audited in a way that means it’s substantive, that it’s actually telling you something about the company’s economic exposure to those things. And I’m not sure we’re there yet either.

Jon Powers:

Right. Do you think that the efforts in Europe around like the taxonomy or the current, obviously the administration’s efforts at the [SEC 00:23:01], the clarity will begin as the metrics begin being more defined?

Ted Roosevelt:

And that’s where I want to be careful about how I talk about this, because there’s no question meaningful steps are being taken by government regulators to make this data more credible. We’re just not quite there yet.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

And I think that remains a challenge and missed opportunity because of the amount of money that’s flowing into ESG funds right now. At some point… And so I highly encourage a taxonomy to… And support. And we work with and other folks that are advising these, advising different government… The SEC, for example, to create these frameworks that we can all agree and understand, and then the data can start being analyzed the same way that financial data’s being analyzed, right? And that’s when the capital markets really thrive.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

Unfortunately we may be a little bit further away from that than anybody wants to admit. If you look at the sort of history of depreciation and how long, it took over a decade for corporations to… or for the different regulatory agencies to settle on a definition of depreciation. And so it’s going to take some time…

Jon Powers:

Really?

Ted Roosevelt:

Oh, it’s. So we take standards for granted.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

You know, the accounting standards for granted. But they take a long time before there’s there’s full agreement. And anybody who’s invested in the public equity markets or anywhere will tell you that, like, even though there’s standards and these numbers are audited and there’s clear guidelines and rules, there’s still a lot of wiggle room in terms of how companies can report information.

Ted Roosevelt:

So we’re still many… I mean, I would argue, and, and SASB will tell you this… SASB is the Sustainable Accounting Standards Board. They will tell you that we’re at least a decade off from having audited numbers that we can rely on consistently across companies.

Jon Powers:

So a decade off, a decade from now, when we have those numbers, the audits are there, do you see sort of a Moody’s-esque rating on people’s ESG that you are able to invest thoroughly on?

Ted Roosevelt:

Yeah. And I don’t mean to be too skeptical here.

Jon Powers:

No, no, it’s…

Ted Roosevelt:

I apologize if it sounds too pessimistic. It’s not going to be kind of a black and white line across.

Jon Powers:

It doesn’t change the markets overnight, right?

Ted Roosevelt:

It’s going to be an evolution. It’s going to get better and better and better over the next decade. And I think what I would say to you, Jon, and other investors that are interested in this space is that there is an inefficiency in the market as it relates to ES and G investing.

Ted Roosevelt:

If you believe, as I do for example, that climate change is going to have an economic impact on publicly traded companies. What you can then infer is that data is not easily accessible to the average investor right now. Which means that there’s an opportunity set for investors to potentially take advantage of that and generate some alpha. Hopefully that alpha disappears because everybody’s doing it.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

That’s the goal, in that we are accounting for the true cost of climate change in our public equity and across the capital markets in our investments. We’re just not there right now. And the small benefit to people that really think about it thoughtfully and invest around it thoughtfully is that they should be able to generate some alpha between now and then when that happens.

Jon Powers:

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m going to ask… This is super, super interesting. I look forward to continuing this conversation over time as we’re sort of progressing over the next decade. And I’m going to change, totally switch on here for a second. As someone who left school studying political science. And if you could go back to yourself in 1998 and sit down and have a beer, what a piece of advice, would you give yourself?

Ted Roosevelt:

Oh, that’s a great question. So you mentioned I worked at Lehman Brothers.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

And, but besides telling myself not to go work for Lehman Brothers, on a very practical level…

Jon Powers:

Were you there until the end, till they shut the doors?

Ted Roosevelt:

What’s that? I was there until they shut the doors. And listen, I worked with some amazing people. Their fixed income group was best in class. And so I don’t, that’s sort of, I say that tongue in cheek more than anything else.

Jon Powers:

Yeah, of course.

Ted Roosevelt:

But the lesson that I did take from that, which I think is applicable throughout life as well as what I’m doing now, is if you looked at my career trajectory, I started trading fixed income bonds. And when I was about mid twenties, mid to late twenties, I started trading credit default swaps.

Ted Roosevelt:

And I went from trading, I don’t know, five, five, 10 million dollars of risk a day to hundreds of millions of dollars of risk very quickly. And when that was happening, there was that little voice in the back of my head that said, “I’m not sure that we understand this risk as well as we think we do.”

Jon Powers:

Right.

Ted Roosevelt:

And it’s escalating very quickly. And it was to my benefit. I was being compensated because I was trading a lot more. And I always thought in my head, listen, there’s a guy that’s at the time 40 that I work for, that guy definitely knows what the risk is. And he reports to somebody senior to him. He certainly understands the risk.

Jon Powers:

He’s got to know.

Ted Roosevelt:

And everybody gets it, somebody smarter than me gets this risk. And while my desk and what we did had nothing to do with Lehman’s bankruptcy, it was emblematic of probably looser than one might like risk controls.

Ted Roosevelt:

And I think the lesson that I would tell myself is don’t presume that because there’s a structure built around certain risk expectations or that somebody’s senior in the room understands the… that there’s always somebody that understands the situation better than you. Pursue that question, that is maybe there’s something that’s been missed here.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Ted Roosevelt:

Because more often than… Maybe not more often than not, but if you pursue it enough, you might find something that’s been missed.

Jon Powers:

Interesting. Interesting. And clearly, sometimes you can find an opportunity through that.

Ted Roosevelt:

And you might find an interesting opportunity there. Yeah.

Jon Powers:

So you can obviously learn more about Redwood Grove Capital at redwoodgrovecapital.com. You know, Ted, I want to thank you for the leadership you guys continue to show the thought leadership, putting out pieces sort of regularly for folks to see. Definitely you should be following you guys on Twitter and LinkedIn. And you there, there’s so many people interested in really trying to wrap their heads around what’s happening in ESG today. And this conversation hopefully will help shine a light for many of them. So thank you so much.

Ted Roosevelt:

Well, thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure for me too.

Jon Powers:

Absolutely. Thanks for the team at cleancapital. You always get more episodes at cleancapital.com. Thanks to Carly Battin and Colleen Young, our producers. And I look forward to continuing the conversation. Thanks.

Jon Powers:

Thanks for listening in today’s conversation. Find more episodes on cleancapital.com, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe and leave us a five star review. We look forward to continuing our conversation on energy, innovation and finance with you.