Jon Powers (00:02):

Welcome

Jon Powers (00:03):

Back to Experts Only. I’m your host, Jon Powers. I’m the co-founder of Clean Capital and serve as President Obama’s Chief Sustainability Officer. On this podcast, we explore solutions to climate change by talking to industry leaders about the intersection of energy, innovation and finance. You can get more episodes@cleancapital.com.

(00:29):

Welcome back to Experts Only. I’m your host, Jon Powers. Today we have an annual treat. We’re going to talk about the 2024 Sustainable Energy in America, factbook, that’s put out by the Business Council for Sustainable Energy and in partnership with Bloomberg, NEF. This is the best compilation of data in our industry in terms of investment, manufacturing, production, mobility covers so many different areas, and it really tells the story that the industry should be grabbing onto in our conversation. As always, we’re joined by Lisa Jacobson, who’s the president of the Business Council for Sustainable Energy, and Tara Nara Ryan, who is a senior associate for US Power at Bloomberg NEF. Tara is new to this because Ethan, who took over used to be a Bloomberg NEF, is now Department of Treasury helping to get some of the policies we need implemented. But she brings a great perspective, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. As always, you can get more episodes@cleancapital.com, and throughout the episode we talk about where you can get the fact book. Enjoy. Lisa and Tara, thanks so much for joining us at Experts Only. Oh,

Lisa Jacobson (01:26):

It’s so great to be here. Thanks, Jon.

Tara Narayanan (01:28):

Yeah, thanks for having us,

Jon Powers (01:30):

Tara. Welcome to our annual conversation around the amazing work you guys are doing with the Factbook. I think we’ve had this going on four or five years, and it’s just such positive information and trends in terms of where we’re heading and overall, I think this is one of the most valuable tools in the industry today for telling people the story of where we’re headed. So thank you for the work you’re doing on it. Yeah, no

Tara Narayanan (01:51):

Worries. It was fun working on this. Actually,

Jon Powers (01:53):

Lisa, just as a reminder to the audience, can you talk a little bit about the business council, but also how this Factbook came to be and sort of where we are? I think this is the what, 11th you guys? No,

Lisa Jacobson (02:03):

We’re in the 12th year.

Jon Powers (02:04):

Oh my gosh.

Lisa Jacobson (02:05):

Year. I know. No, no. Thank you for obviously for the tension you give to the facts and looking at the Factbook in particular as a resource that means a lot. Your view on things is a keen eye, and we too share your interest in getting good information about the US Energy transition out to lots of audiences. But to answer your question, for those that may not know the Business Council for Sustainable Energy, we are an energy trade association. We are based in Washington DC and we focus on policy, education and advocacy to support the deployment of low and zero carbon technologies, our members, van companies and trade associations from many different energy sectors like energy efficiency to natural gas, renewable energy to decarbonization technologies, to sustainable transportation and energy storage. I mean, the list just grows. But I think what’s interesting about that, and it certainly is reflected in the Factbook data, is how these individual sectors are working together much more to support the energy transition. It’s really a systems oriented and integrated energy transition.

Jon Powers (03:26):

Right, and it’s underway, which is super exciting. Yes. It’s to show that, so you’ve partnered with Bloomberg NEF Tower for a second. For folks that are not familiar, could you talk about Bloomberg NEF, which used to be Bloomberg New Energy Finance and the role you play in the industry?

Tara Narayanan (03:40):

Yeah, for sure. BNEF, there’s still so many people who say, so you’re New Energy Finance, even though we moved it awkwardly to an acronym, Bloomberg NEF. So a long time ago, this was a startup that was focused on covering new energies that could be disruptive, primarily focused on things like decarbonization was then since acquired by Bloomberg, and now we are a market research provider that covers really every aspect of the energy transition. And the aim is to provide decision makers, companies, utility financiers, really anyone in the space navigate this really complex transition that is happening on multiple fronts. And our main aim is to provide unbiased data and research.

Jon Powers (04:29):

Excellent. And Lisa, for everyone’s knowledge, where can they find the factbook?

Lisa Jacobson (04:35):

We can find it on the BBC SE website and also on Bloomberg Neff’s website. But I’ll just give the BBCs E uur l. It’s perhaps a little shorter. It’s www.bcse.org, and then you could just do slash factbook or you can find it easily from our homepage and the whole fact book’s available for free. But we also have a lot of other tools there. We have videos and other short tight resources that get you into the data that you may be interested in finding. So lots of things to share and BCSE and Bloomberg, NEF are happy to work with anyone who wants to get this information out broadly. So just

Jon Powers (05:19):

Every year, this is one of the best compilations of data that you find out there. We share this heavily internally in Clean Capital. I actually recently had Lynn on talking about what’s happening at the state level, and I love that this sort of umbrellas down altogether, but so maybe Tara for a second, where does the data come from that compiles all this? I think what’s unique about the Facts book is you’re pulling in a lot of different threads to put this information out there.

Tara Narayanan (05:43):

So it comes from a number of different sources. A lot of data comes from the us EI. A lot of it also comes from our own data tracking. So we are a data provider, so we have teams that are sort of, one example is on the clean power side. We’re essentially combing lists of publicly announced wind and solar projects through press releases and company filings and so on. So we use that to supplement data from the EIA. We also look at other industry groups and bodies that may be publishing information. Energy efficiency, for example, comes from ac EE, and so wherever possible where we can find a data source that is authentic government, our own other industry groups, we compile it all.

Jon Powers (06:31):

So Lisa, looking back, oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, no, go ahead. I

Lisa Jacobson (06:35):

Was going to say that is one of the really, I think unique features of this partnership is that it’s a two-way opportunity. The industry knows that a lot is changing, but we don’t have many resources that knit it all together. And I think for Bloomberg, NEF, they continue to evolve and grow their analytic teams, but there may be areas that are relatively small now that are really primed for change, and they get an insight into that from the industry. So it’s a collaboration, but at the end of the day, we really value the independent voice of Bloomberg NEF, and we want this to be a Bloomberg NEF product because we want that validation of the information so that people can feel confident that what they’re reading is not a forecast in this case and not policy advocacy. I mean, this is really just part of the market trends and why.

Jon Powers (07:32):

Yeah, I use it for policy advocacy, but it’s great that it’s out there to use it.

Lisa Jacobson (07:37):

We’re not advocating for policy. No, I

Jon Powers (07:39):

Understand that. I understand that

Lisa Jacobson (07:40):

As a tool, but the line’s going up, the line’s going down, is that good or bad? And what are we going to do about it? That’s what we use it for of course as well, but not advocating for policy in the factbook.

Jon Powers (07:52):

Oh, no, absolutely. And I think what’s great about the Factbook is that it shows historical trends. It shows things in a way that visually that you really can understand the growth of the space. Tara, as you mentioned, this is really no longer new energy. This is about sort of growing in scale, the clean energy transition, and whether it be talking about investment, we should talk about manufacturing. You talk about energy efficiency, natural gas mobility, so many different pieces, and it just sort of highlights for folks in a way that’s digestible, which I love. Now I’m going to go back to Lisa, your experience doing this now for 12 years, and if there was a major theme in this factbook or a trend last year was a lot about the fact that this is really starting to take hold. Is this about scale? What is 2024 telling us?

Lisa Jacobson (08:43):

I think it’s about resilience and really the mainstreaming of the energy transition. We still are having the post covid response in the business sector, not just for energy, but throughout our entire economy and not just in North America globally. So we have a number of factors that could help or hinder any kind of investment in economic activity. And the energy sector, again, is not immune to those forces. So interestingly for me was again, this continued resilience and we use the word thriving of the energy transition, and we think the reasons for that are a strong and durable policy foundation. So when we looked at things like high interest rates over the last year or continued supply chain disruptions, things that could really hamper deployment on a good year, otherwise we saw this kind of three, I call it three part reaction. One things that were already growing, really went to another level, things that were kind of nascent for a long time, got a strong kickstart. So overall, I feel like the policy foundation was kind of this armor against these other trends that really would’ve beaten back deployment and we had record years yet again in so many areas that we track.

Jon Powers (10:08):

Yeah, absolutely. When you look at, I like to say policy, finance and technology, they’re aligned in a way they never have. And now it’s about deployment of those technologies out there. And we’re seeing, and we’ll talk about some of the numbers in a second, but I do want to talk about policy first because we are now well into the inflation reduction act and bipartisan infrastructure bill as well as the CHIPS act and how those are not independent pieces of legislation. There’s a marriage of policy there that’s unleashing a lot of exciting things across the landscape here in the United States, whether it be American manufacturing, more projects, more capital, but we’re still very early in that implementation. The rules are still being written on tax credits for instance, or how are you going to get climate justice or energy justice into certain communities? What are you seeing in terms of major steps that have taken over the last year that helped bring forward, for instance, the private sector investment, the policy set up private sector investment at a record shattering over 300 billion in 2023. How has that compared to what you’ve seen in the past?

Tara Narayanan (11:25):

So on one hand, I feel like you kind of said it, which is it is record shattering. This is the highest amount that the US has ever invested in the energy transition in the last couple of years. And we are sort of stacking this up across a number of different sectors, looking at power as well as investment in electrified transport as well as in infrastructure. So things like the power grid as well as the really new nascent sectors like hydrogen and CCS, how much money is going into all of those things. Although to be fair, those are still newer and growing. And the thing is that when we actually stepped back and look at the trend across the board, what we saw was that actually every sector had a little bit of a record and every country except for one or two also had records of investment in sort of the energy transition.

(12:20):

And so what they actually told us, and sorry to go on a slight tangent, is that actually we’re kind of at the point where from a US point of view, both in the one year post IRA, there’s been a lot of excitement and momentum and we’re starting to see that actually translate to investment, but it’s also coming at a time when this picture is also what is happening globally. So really every country is setting a record and if we really are to hit net zero, we need to be setting records every year going forward. There’s definitely something to pat ourselves on the back for, but we need to aim to doing that every year.

Jon Powers (12:56):

And when we look at the 300 billion that’s specifically focused on US private investment, correct?

Tara Narayanan (13:00):

Yeah. So the US private investment is, well, we’re not looking at private investment, we’re just looking at how much money went into the sector because especially when you look at things like how much money went into building renewables, we can track that on the basis of the final capacity. It’s a little hard to emigrate private versus how much of it was potentially tax credit and so on. But it also includes power grids, electric vehicles.

Jon Powers (13:23):

Yeah, absolutely. And is there a number globally? I mean, I’ve heard when some of the work that series had done historically to stay below two degrees, we’ve got to have almost a trillion dollars in investment a year into the clean energy space. Do you have some numbers for global investment?

Tara Narayanan (13:39):

Yeah, so for global investment, I think we estimated at 1.7 trillion. But I think our estimate of how much you would need to invest annually actually is a little bit higher than that. You would need to get into multiples of doubling or tripling the amount of investment to get to net zero. So definitely a good number you

Jon Powers (13:59):

Need to, but there’s more work to be done. So the foundation there, the trends are positive, but yeah, there needs to be more capital to work. So Lisa, let’s talk about actually projects going into the ground because we were also seeing unbelievable record shattering, again, amount of deployment in terms of projects being built. Renewables contributed to 23% of total US generation in 2023, the highest ever. I think when you and I started working together over a decade ago, I think we were going to break 20% seemed unfathomable, and the trends are continuing to be very positive, but projects are being built. There’s over 42 gigawatts of capacity added to the grid last year. What are some of the things you’re hearing from your members that is sort of leading to more and more projects being put in the ground?

Lisa Jacobson (14:45):

Well, certainly the tax extension, you have to go back to post the inflation reduction Act. We were looking yet again at a whole suite of tax credits sometimes that were implemented on and off and retroactively over the last 25 years to be completely gone. So to get a 10 year runway on these tax credits and then some opportunity for expansion, which we’ve had. We have standalone energy storage credit now. We have modernized and expanded carbon capture and storage credit. We have some new fuels credits and then some of the traditional credits for renewable energy, like the production tax credit and the investment tax credit are going to transition to this technology neutral approach in the coming years. So there’s just a lot of opportunity there to plan. As you mentioned, some of the changes along with this 10 year extension and expansion and modernization of a number of credits came new opportunities, new bonus credits or enhancements for domestic content related to employment and labor and apprenticeships related to where you might have your project.

(15:56):

Are you in an energy transition community or an underserved community? So there were these additional elements that were not in the policy previously, which were currently still refining the rules for. So in some cases there is a little uncertainty on certain aspects of those, but overall the market signal is very clear. So I think we saw that in the numbers last year despite some of this uncertainties and also despite the fact that we were having a challenging just broader macroeconomic environment that impacts prices of projects, the price to build. So I’m feeling good about that and that is again, a major foundation for what we saw in the numbers last year, but I think it’s only going to provide a strong foundation in the years ahead.

Jon Powers (16:46):

That policy certainty is so key to attracting better capital and the cheaper capital we can get, the cheaper these projects are going to be for off-takers than everyone else being in Washington. Lisa, I think you hit on there are some really interesting things in the IRA that are going to incentivize the correct what we see as the correct policies, which is whether it be energy transition communities, et cetera, but there’s still uncertainty around those policies. So as we underwrite a deal or a debt provider underwrites a deal, we just don’t know how the IRS is going to look at certain things to date. Hopefully our friend Ethan is working on that stuff at Department of Treasury and can move it forward. But being close to Washington in this really political year, do you see some of those rules coming forward and finalizing this year just being in the beltway? What are you hearing around some of those teams? Well, we’re

Lisa Jacobson (17:39):

Definitely hearing from the Biden administration, whether that be the Department of Treasury IRS or the White House and Department of Energy, that they want to finalize a lot of the rules as quickly as possible. So that’s the word. I think there isn’t real interest decoding that is they want to get it done this year to the best extent that they can, but they have so much they’re working on all at once. I mean, we could go through a number of different things that we’re waiting on. I probably ticked through three at a high level. Some of the issues related to domestic content for a number of credits in their current form haven’t been resolved. That’s a big issue. A really exciting change, which I didn’t mention previously, was the opportunity for non-for-profits to access the tax credits through something called elective pay, which sounds obviously for the tax folks, they understand that, but maybe for other listeners what is that?

(18:30):

But basically it just enables them to participate in the tax regime. And then there are things related to the hydrogen credit, which we have these hydrogen hubs throughout the country. There’s a lot of news reports about how they’re progressing and this phase they’re going into where they’re coming up with the first stage of agreements with the Department of Energy, they need to know what the economics of those projects are going to look like. And they’re using a lot of different resources and they were meant to be kind of let many flowers bloom. And so we need to get rules for the hydrogen production tax credit as soon as we can. Now, there’s many other things too that people are interested in, but those are just three that we’re watching very closely right now.

Jon Powers (19:15):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the most interesting stories of the overall trends that we’re seeing is you talked about domestic manufacturing, the demand for those panels, et cetera in the solar space are way outstripping supply today in terms of what’s being manufactured. But we’re seeing almost quarter by quarter new announcements being made for new facilities. And you guys talk about by the end of 2023, the number of manufacturing facilities planned in response to the IRA rose to over 104 representing 120 billion in announcements tar. Can you talk a little bit about what you’re seeing in those numbers? This is solar manufacturing. Battery manufacturing happens in places like South Carolina and Georgia, hopefully some in Buffalo someday. We’ll see what do those numbers mean in terms of getting to the supply we need to meet those domestic requirements.

Tara Narayanan (20:10):

That number definitely breaks down differently across different sectors. And so while the most announcements are coming from solar and batteries, the battery announcements are a lot, we are generally a lot more optimistic when we look at the battery announcements because a lot of them are in partnership with EVs and there’s a number of EV factory expansions and upgrades announced as well. But on the solar side, this is definitely something that needs to happen, but how quickly it will actually materialize and how much this will materialize is something that I think remains to be seen because when you think of the global picture, there’s definitely a lot more supply available in other parts of the world. On the solar side, there’s in fact significant overcapacity globally. And so while the US definitely wants to string, then its domestics,

Jon Powers (21:04):

Overcapacity of panels

Tara Narayanan (21:07):

Of panels, multiple aspects of the supply chain, but panels as well. And what that’s doing is actually pushing prices down pretty significantly for anyone outside the us, but as the US wants to build up and really focus on this domestic supply chain, the trade-off is obviously cost. Batteries on the other hand are still a little bit earlier stage in terms of development globally. And so that’s one I think where there’s a lot more excitement

Jon Powers (21:36):

And a lot of opportunity to finally lead versus I think we’ve unfortunately seeded leadership over the decade to others. Obviously you’re talking a lot about the US based numbers and what’s happening here domestically and really exciting numbers in there about energy storage, which is now, it’s doubling almost a year after year. The momentum, and by the way, we’re seeing this in actual projects being financed by clean capital. We, we’ve been looking at this for two years. This is going to be a monumental year last year and this year for us actually financing projects as infrastructure investors. That means these are proven, right? We’re not taking high risk projects. This is about infrastructure, and I think we’re going to see more of that moving forward. But even with those numbers tar compared to what we’re seeing globally specifically in China, can you talk about some of the data that you’re seeing coming out of China, which really is a tidal wave compared to sort of the growth that we’re seeing here?

Tara Narayanan (22:31):

Yeah, for sure, because I think we have this joke internally, which is that when you look at any sector like renewables or EVs or even some of the commodities and clean manufacturing, China is half of everything. And so it’s really something that’s hard to dislodge, but the US is really

Jon Powers (22:50):

Including their own demand. Their own demand is requiring that, yeah,

Tara Narayanan (22:54):

Their own demand is requiring that. But same with steel or anything else. But I think the thing with the us, at least on batteries is that it still remains one of the markets that is really attractive for a lot of suppliers to come in and sell. There’s continuous demand, and within the US at least locally places like California and the Southwest where there is so much solar are also where we’re able to see the sparing of solar and storage, the sort of natural complement there that in the past we would look at and be like, well, maybe one day storage will come in and help out solar in terms of over capacity. And now that’s actually starting to happen. And so there’s a lot of lessons to be learned in terms of how you integrate batteries with a high renewables grid coming out of the us.

Jon Powers (23:41):

Yeah, I mean there’s still only a handful of states and even nodes that we’re projects being built, right? We’re still only on the verge of that really starting to blossom. Lisa, we talked a lot about the positive news, the positive trends. There are some headwinds that you guys point to. I think some of it’s some of the enhanced demand we’re seeing for electricity. Greenhouse gas numbers have been post the pandemic are coming back up, which is sort of scary or they had been coming back up as well as corporate procurement slowing because of the economy. Can you talk about some of the challenges that the factbook points to?

Lisa Jacobson (24:15):

Yeah, I mean, one of the bright stars of the last five plus years has been that really strong corporate procurement dataset that we had looking at PPA signed each year. It was breaking records every year. It was expanding beyond tech. I mean, a lot of that is still true, but the pace has really stalled over the last year. I mean, it was pretty dramatic from where we were at the end of 2022 to the end of 2023. And I think you hit on some of the dynamics, and I love Tara’s perspective as well, but I mean the pledges that we currently have are still pretty strong demand signals going forward. And I don’t hear around our leadership table any retreat from continued expansion of procurement of renewable energy. I mean, one of the things that we have also been working on over the past year in 2023 has been some of the really strong carbon accounting frameworks like the Greenhouse Gas Protocol are changing their rules.

(25:15):

We also saw the SEC put out a proposal on how climate risk disclosures would play a role for registrants, and now we’re recording this in mid-March. We just saw in the last few weeks the SEC come out with its final rule. So there’s a lot going on in the corporate space that could impact how they’re thinking about the type of procurements that they would want to make. So I’m hoping it’s just a very short term dynamic and that we return to an expansion of this marketplace, which has been so valuable. And when you would put the demand forecast from the pledges up against each year’s actual deployment. Now of course the projects don’t match for that year. It was basically half of the entire demand was the corporate sector when you looked at the gigawatts installed in a particular year. So this is not just a minor thing, this is a really major driver. So I’m hoping that we’ll see a return, but I welcome Tara’s perspectives.

Jon Powers (26:21):

Can I tell you one thing we see on the ground before Tara? We can see that is that we look back last year, last year was a really bad year in terms of m and a in this space because debt prices went up as a result. Developers expectations of what they were going to get for their project did not change until the second half of the year. So they didn’t realize that debt was significantly affecting how much their value was. We’re actually seeing a very similar trend in procurement where there was so much excitement around the IRA that the corporate procurers themselves, the offices that are become so sophisticated at this just expected prices to go down when the reality is we’re still not seeing all the implementation happening. We’re seeing a ton of challenges on construction because there’s so much infrastructure money being put out for other verticals to actually have someone who can build a project in Ohio, the EPC prices went skyrocketing, and we’re going to see that continue for a little while as trillions are being poured in infrastructure. So I think hopefully they will reset to understanding the dramatic cuts they were hoping to see immediately aren’t going to be there. And they have to realize that PPA prices, for instance, are going to be a little more levelized and they have to be able to plan to spend if they’re going to reach their goals.

Tara Narayanan (27:39):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like there’s two things there. The first, to Lisa’s point earlier, one of the reasons there’s been a bit of a slowdown in new commitments to re 100 or any of those groups is more to do with the fact that a lot of the biggest players have already committed, especially when you think about it globally, like the US and a lot of companies, Japan has a bunch of companies they’ve already committed. So new membership is going to slow down, and there’s also this growing push around net zero, so more than just renewables. So there’s a lot more attention being diverted there, but the commitments are going to drive new demand for at least renewables. And Jon, to your point a hundred percent, we saw this last year as well when we were trying to produce forecasts where just because the costs went down on paper, the supply demand of actual projects that were ready to come online or supply demand of projects that were ready to sign a PPA given the slower pace of interconnection across different ISOs did not really stack up because there are some things that the policy can definitely help with.

(28:42):

So economic problems can be waived away with more tax credits, but non-economic issues like, can you actually move this project forward? Can you get the permits on time? You can’t waive that away. Yeah,

Jon Powers (28:52):

And we’re also facing, I’m going to, first of all, this is phenomenal. I can talk to you guys all day about this data, but we are seeing a well-funded anti renewables push at a local level, cutting off, permitting, things like that. Where what I love about the fact book and there is if there’s a theme for me in 2024, it’s fact versus fiction. The reason the SEC rule, for instance, got handcuffed as much as it did is you had Alec and other organizations pushing out false narratives around what this is going to do for corporate America. We need to be out advocating for policies that we want to see in place to actually help this industry thrive. This gives us the ammunition to do this, right? Facts don’t always win. You got to be able to tell the story, but this is great ammunition for helping all of us in the audience advocate for the policies we want to see in place. I know Lisa, this doesn’t advocate for the policies, but we need to. And so I challenge all of, we’re doing

Lisa Jacobson (29:48):

It every day. I mean, that’s what we want to do. And also in our data as well as the data of a lot of other industry and non-industry players is showing where these investments are going, and they are going throughout the country and a higher pace right now in what people refer to as red states. So there’s a lot of benefit in terms of jobs and economic development going into a broad swath of the country, and we think that is going be what pivots the conversation. Love it. No one wants to give that up.

Jon Powers (30:28):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So a year from now when I’m prepping for this interview again and listening to this series is interview, what is the trend we’re going to see in 2025 is coming out of the next book?

Lisa Jacobson (30:43):

I am particularly interested in what happens with the transportation sector. We’ve got some EPA rules still getting finalized. We just have a lot of, we are showing the increase in purchases of electric vehicles. We’re seeing other things happening in the transportation sector, but we still see this persistent high level of emissions in the transportation sector in the United States. So I want to see those market trends come together and those emissions numbers coming down. So that’s what I’m hoping that we will see. I mean, I guess I would say the same for industrial. We really have seen a lot of activity on the power sector. I mean, we’re 40% below 2005 levels. We still have ways to go there, but we’re continuing to make strong progress in the power sector. But if you look at our mission state, especially industrial and commercial, I mean, they just haven’t moved at all. They’ve been the same relative proportion for at least 10, 20 years. So we got to make progress there and we definitely need to continue to make progress with transportation.

Jon Powers (31:59):

Tara?

Tara Narayanan (32:00):

Yeah, likewise, I would say we really need to start thinking about sectors outside of power. Obviously with transport more electrification means that transport can sort of piggyback off that decarbonization that’s happening in power anyway. But for 2025, hopefully a lot of the tax credit rules would be written. And so these large impressive sounding announcement that we are hearing around new tax transfer deals for wind and solar, taking advantage of the tax credit transferability so that you don’t have to use tax equity, which is a little more complex. We start to see some of those announcements come through for things like hydrogen and CCS, meaning that actual investment is going into these sectors and actual work towards bringing down those emissions is happening.

Jon Powers (32:52):

Excellent. Well, first of all, Lisa, just could you remind the audience where they can find the book?

Lisa Jacobson (32:57):

Sure. B BBCs e website Business Council for sustainable energy, www.bcsc.org. And if you want to go one step further, you can do slash factbook, but otherwise you can get to it right from our homepage

Jon Powers (33:10):

And one step further, sign up for our membership and help BBCs e be active, which they’re doing incredible work. And thank you to both of you for this partnership that you have and the story you’re helping to tell for our industry.

Lisa Jacobson (33:24):

Oh, thank you, Jon. Really, it’s a pleasure.

Tara Narayanan (33:27):

Yeah. Thanks so much for having us.

Jon Powers (33:28):

Yeah, Tara, welcome to your inaugural interview. We’ll see you next year for the same conversation when you put this out. And this is my challenge to the audience. As always, this is going to be a year where we need to be fighting for the policies we care about this. factbook gives us the tools to do it, so please go get it, share it within your company. There’s great data and there for us to help tell our story. You can always get more episodes@cleancapital.com. I want to thank the team at BCSC as well as Bloomberg, NEF, and our producer Colleen Young, for helping to put this together. Thanks so much and I look forward to continuing the conversation.

Lisa Jacobson (34:02):

Thank you.

Jon Powers (34:03):

Thank you. Thank

Tara Narayanan (34:04):

You.