Jon Powers (00:02):

Welcome back to Experts Only. I’m your host, Jon Powers. I’m the co-founder of Clean Capital and serve as President Obama’s Chief Sustainability Officer. On this podcast, we explore solutions to climate change by talking to industry leaders about the intersection of energy, innovation and finance. You can get more episodes at Clean Capital. Welcome back to Experts only. This is the first episode of 2025, and we are going to be starting a new series here this year, getting the podcast underway. She has been in a previous episode, but Lynn’s the president of the Clean Energy Business Network. We’re going to talk about the impact that the IRA has had around small business and what the new administration means for some of the challenges there and what we all can do about it. So please give it a listen. Check out the Clean Energy Business Network. If you’re not a member, you should be. I can really help you advocate for the things that we all care about. And if for more episodes of experts only, you can go to clean capital.com. Enjoy the conversation. Lynn, thanks so much for joining me again at Experts Only.

Lynn Abramson (01:12):

Great. Thanks to see you again, Jon. Thanks so much for having me back.

Jon Powers (01:15):

Yeah, of course. It’s it a really interesting time for our industry and I want to get into more of that. But for listeners, this is not the first time Linda’s been on talking about the amazing work she’s doing. Challenge you to go back and listen to that podcast and her incredible career. I want to get into the nuts and bolts of I, what the industry looks like, where we’re going with the challenges ahead. But before doing that, can you talk a little bit about the Clean Energy Business Network and what you do?

Lynn Abramson (01:41):

Yeah, so again, encourage folks to go listen in more depth to the previous podcast, but just to recap some of the basics. The Clean Energy Business Network is a nationwide nonprofit organization that serves as the small business voice for the clean energy economy. And really we work with both small business leaders as well as community leaders across the nation to give them a voice in Washington. So a lot of these folks don’t have lobbyists, don’t have representation in DC and aren’t well tapped into what the federal policy landscape looks like. So we help them both navigate that as well as influence some of those policies. And then we also serve as an informational resource for them to help them tap into federal funding opportunities, sources of support from partner organizations such as incubators, accelerators, state, local governments, et cetera, across the nation, and really try to be that glue that helps to tie all these different pieces together. So we work to inform them about policy, inform them about funding opportunities, resources. We have a funding database. We have an ecosystem resources list mentioning some of these different partners. And then we really try to distill information in a very simple way about some of these policy opportunities and make it very easy for people to weigh in through sign-on letters or just connecting with their policy leaders directly.

Jon Powers (03:09):

Yeah, it’s such a critical time for that work, and we’ll talk more about that in a second. So if you think about the businesses within your network, we are at a very monumental time in our industry, in our marketplace. Obviously, we’re actually seeing an incredibly robust clean energy marketplace today, and it’s driven by a few key things. It’s driven by policies that have been in place the last few years. It’s driven by finance. It’s moving in this space never before technologies that are proven. So looking back over the last couple of years, sort of post the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act and the bipartisan infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, that combination of policies that have helped sort of accelerate American manufacturing and new opportunities, what does the world look like for some of your business owners today? And I want to talk about what it’s going to look like in the future.

Lynn Abramson (04:00):

So I would say the clean energy economy has never been stronger or more prevalent than it is today. It really has become part of the fabric of the US energy economy. It’s not a fringe industry. We talked about this a little bit on the previous podcast, but when I started in this space back in 2008, we were really kind of in the newer stages. The clean energy economy is just getting started. A lot of states were passing the first renewable portfolio standard. It was sort of a new industry, and now it’s booming industry. It’s really one of taken off in the United States and the end also throughout the world. And so combined, the Inflation Reduction Act was more than 350 billion of investment in clean energy, the bipartisan infrastructure law, 1.2 trillion Trips and Sciences Act, investing in all of this infrastructure for supply chains, for r and d, for ecosystem support across this nation. And that trifecta of policies that was enacted in the last Congress was really critical for the clean energy industry and for small businesses in particular. So I want to really in particular talk about tax incentives since that has been the driving us policy, incentivizing clean energy deployment for decades now in this country. We like carrots and

(05:30):

We like business tax credits. That’s how we operate. That’s very American. And the tax incentives have, we’ve seen them enacted, expanded new technologies, added reauthorized for decades now under all different types of congresses administrations, different champions behind those bills. The Inflation Reduction Act was one of the largest and sort of longest term extensions of the clean energy tax incentives. And through a combination of policies gives business and investor certainty through 2032, which is really critical because when we’ve seen a one or two year tax extension that is really difficult to plan major infrastructure projects around.

Jon Powers (06:23):

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that, the need for that certainty, especially for small businesses, right.

Lynn Abramson (06:28):

Yeah, absolutely. So depending on the scale of a project, if we’re talking about utility scale project, I mean, we could be talking decade out planning, but even with smaller projects, we’re talking about a homeowner or we’re talking about a commercial scale project, these things can take a couple of years to plan out and develop. So if you don’t know what, if you don’t know if you’re going to have a 30% investment tax credit two years from now, that really reduces the pipeline and the runway for your future investments and it makes your customers really, they’re not certain what kind of resources are available to them. So if anything, it’s almost like you’re

Jon Powers (07:12):

Not even certain what to charge them,

Lynn Abramson (07:13):

Right? It’s almost counterproductive when you put this policy in place and then let it lapse or you remove it. So it really creates a lot of uncertainty. So having a decatal sort of runway for planning policy planning investment is really critical. And for small businesses in particular, I mean all businesses, all investors thrive on financial certainty and long-term planning. But small businesses are the ones that have the smallest margins, the most uncertainty, the least resources for planning, for marketing, for tapping into large investments. And so those are the ones that depend on that type of certainty the most.

Jon Powers (08:00):

And they also the ones with the least resources to go in and lobby and

Lynn Abramson (08:03):

Exactly and

Jon Powers (08:03):

Advocate. So for a second before we talk, I think especially the next few months hold, but the future holds in terms of that activity. How do you all coordinate with those players and what kind of support do you provide them?

Lynn Abramson (08:17):

Are you talking about the small business players or the policy?

Jon Powers (08:18):

Yeah, the small business players. How does the network support them? And if I have a small business and I want to get involved and I want to advocate, but I just don’t have literally even a policy

Lynn Abramson (08:29):

Person,

Jon Powers (08:31):

How do I get engaged? We’re going to talk a lot about, I think the next phase of this is there’s going to be a real need for that never before. Absolutely. How can I commit my time to do?

Lynn Abramson (08:42):

Yeah. So it’s a very rigorous process. To become a member of the Clean Energy Business Network, you have to go to our website, which is www dot c bn, and you need to provide your email address. So if you advance through that process, there are other options. We have some very low cost premium memberships as well, but really the vast majority of the more than 8,200 people in our network, our receiving all of our resources for free. And so we have a really succinct weekly newsletter. We have thematic monthly blog, I’m sorry, emails. We have blog posts and a lot of events where we try to really unpack what’s happening at the federal policy level in an easily digestible way. If you join any of these sort of inside the Belt Way webinars, you’ll hear a lot of terminology thrown around that people across the nation are not familiar with and shouldn’t be because busy doing their full-time jobs and not tracking all of that. So we try to distill that and also help them understand what’s actually going to happen and what’s important. There’s lots of prognostication, but what’s the most critical thing for you to pay attention to and when you weigh in and how we try to make that really easy. So we’re a very big tent. We are very technology agnostic.

(10:11):

Clean energy is in our name, and I know that that can be a polarizing term these days, but that’s very expansive in our view. Are you working on carbon capture? Are you working in modular nuclear? Are you working in renewables? Are you working in energy efficiency or even just decarbonizing materials, innovative uses for, we have members that are turning coal byproducts into roofing tiles and sequestering carbon. Just amazing, really

Lynn Abramson (10:43):

Amazing

Lynn Abramson (10:43):

Stuff work.

(10:45):

So if you feel that you are dedicated to decarbonizing the US economy, modernizing our energy and transportation infrastructure, helping to reduce energy costs for consumers and homeowners, join our network. And we try to really, we will inform people about specific policies impacting particular technologies or issues, but we try to frame a lot of our advocacy in a very big tent way. Here’s the package of tax incentives that we all care about. Let’s push for their renewal or preserving them. We care about funding investments in the Department of Energy and in energy research and development as well as deployment. So we try to think about ways that we can, the rising tides can lift all boats, and those are the types of policies that we mobilize folks on. And we’ll also help them tap into industry specific things being organized by various trade association partners.

Jon Powers (11:47):

I would challenge folks that go to the website, not just to sign up, but also the network just put out their annual report and it just shows the of the network. And I think the impact of the network for me is a nice microcosm to the growth of our industry. We’ve got over 8,000 members who are active.

(12:03):

And I think right now where we are today coming into this new Trump administration where we were not in the last Trump administration is we’ve had now truly almost another decade of growth in our industry and players who are going to commit, thinking about leading up to this election, we probably had the most active political campaigns driven by CA and the Solar PAC and others that had never been active before. And now we have to figure out how to turn that activity into impact as we are about to hit a 90 day push into tax policy. And you talked about the IRA and the rule of taxes. What are the things that you’re looking at in the new administration that your members are looking at that they’re concerned about? And I’ll talk about what we can do about it, but what are some of the key things that are giving them anxiety?

Lynn Abramson (12:54):

So I think there’s a lot conflict. Political polarization are

Lynn Abramson (13:04):

Newsy,

Lynn Abramson (13:04):

Right? So I think a lot of what you hear that trickles back to people across the country sounds like the sky is falling. Oh no. Clean energy policies are in jeopardy. And I like to remind our network members, first of all, our network members come from every kind of political persuasion

(13:24):

And every part of the country and have very different reasons for being part of our network. I mean, we have folks that were involved in incumbent energy industries and diversified into new technology opportunities. Then we have folks that were diehard environmentalists from birth and wanted to make some kind of difference on climate, very different reasons. And their technologies, their political persuasions, their geographies represent what we see in Congress. And so clean energy investments, clean energy tax policies in particular, sure, the Inflation Reduction Act, the latest enactment of those policies passed on a partisan basis under a Democrat controlled Congress. I’m not going to get into all the political reasons behind that, that goes above my area of focus, but those clean energy policies have had historic bipartisan support. In fact, the last time we saw the enactment and expansion of those clean energy tax incentives was under the previous Trump administration and under a divided Congress. And we’ve seen champions on both sides of the aisle introduce these credits, introduce expansions, vote for these credits. And so that’s really one of the things I’m trying to tell our members is that make the case for how this impacts your business. All politics is local. So when we have folks coming in from Hendersonville, Tennessee saying our business is deploying more EV chargers and developing new business opportunities as a result of some of the recent tax incentives, that’s really valuable information.

(15:18):

When we have companies saying from Poughkeepsie, New York saying, we have just received grants that are helping us to expand our RD capabilities, generate new jobs in your state and district, that’s real on the ground impact. And so I think for a lot of the companies in our network, we are helping them to make the case for how various federal investments from the tax code and from appropriations have benefited their business directly, help them to create new jobs, help them to help their customers save money, have a broader impact on their communities, and to keep those policies in place and continue to build on them, continue to build on that legacy. And that’s really an investment in communities across the nation.

Jon Powers (16:08):

Yeah, I think it’s going to take an investment on us as the industry as well to tell those stories, to tell them locally, to make the connection of knowing who your member group of congress is.

(16:17):

So the next, we’re recording this right before the inauguration, which is going to happen on Monday, and then there’s going to be a massive push happening in Washington for folks that don’t pay as close attention to the calendar in Washington. Can you talk for a second about what the next six months look like and why there is a push to really get folks active today to make this case and the importance of that one. And then two, I think what’s really important is there is so much noise, there is so much fear monitoring happening around the edges of this, but also in the reality we’re talking about just a handful of members that we have to be able to influence and have conversations with on the Republican side and the democratic side. And how are you thinking about that strategy and coordinating on that strategy of who we should be talking to?

Lynn Abramson (17:13):

Yeah, so I think a couple of things are creating this actual real time crunch over the next six months, as you mentioned, really even over the next three months. One of those is that we have the incoming administration and Congress, and there’s been a lot of discussion of tax reform. We had a major tax reform bill under, I guess this was 2017. We had some changes around the tax code in 2020, but a lot of interest in reducing the deficit, looking at revisiting how our tax policy looks and where we’re investing money, what kinds of industries we’re incentivizing, how we can shore up our economy. And as we have this incoming Republican Congress and Republican president, that’s a big focus and there’s interest in doing that very quickly. So that’s something that’s one of the highest priority in your term issues. So one of the questions in terms of the clean energy industry in that broader, clean, broader tax package is what happens to the clean energy tax incentives? Are the existing laws that are in place that invest in clean energy technologies, are they preserved? Are there any changes to those credits? So there’s a lot of technology specific credits for solar, wind, biogas, energy efficiency, et cetera. And then there’s these technology and neutral credits. Will those be altered? There’s all these bonus credits for labor and apprenticeships and domestic content. What does it all look like? And so we talked earlier about certainty.

(19:02):

I think to the extent that the broader picture doesn’t change too much for businesses that they can rely on the legal landscape and the investment landscape in the future, looking similar to it does today, it does help provide some certainty. Are there even tweaks around the edges of those Possibly. But I think the question of what does the tax landscape look like is really important. And that’s true I think for the broader clean energy industry. There’s a lot of interest in that. We also have, there’s kind of a niche issue that CEBN and some of our other technology partners have been working on, which is this section 1 74 r and D tax deduction. Really, that’s a catchy terminology there rolls off the tongue, but it’s actually really important. So this is something that there’s been for place in place for decades, this RD tax deduction. So if you are, whether you’re a big firm or a small business that’s doing research, the idea was that the cost of doing that research should be deducted from your income because it’s not like immediate money making revenue. So if you have grants or you have investor income that’s forward looking, right?

Jon Powers (20:22):

And the purpose of that is a drive innovation, right? Exactly. People take those risks and sort of lay off the risk.

Lynn Abramson (20:27):

You don’t have a product yet that’s making money, you put that money into the RD, but unfortunately the upfront first year ability to deduct those expenses lapsed. And we’ve been trying to have that reinstated now for a few years going back.

Jon Powers (20:47):

So that wasn’t covered in the IRA?

Lynn Abramson (20:49):

No. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and it’s funny because it actually has such bipartisan support. It was kind of like a congressional math done in the 2017 Tax cuts and Jobs Act pay fors. It’s not something that

Lynn Abramson (21:06):

We

Lynn Abramson (21:07):

Actually wanted to eliminate. So we’re trying to have that retroactively reinstated going back to 2022. But we’ve heard from companies that this is either put them out or is in danger of putting them out of business because

Lynn Abramson (21:21):

Of how

Lynn Abramson (21:21):

Much r and d expenditure they have. So that’s really important. And it’s not just for clean energy. I mean that’s all sorts of research industries. So that’s another thing we think that actually we

Jon Powers (21:30):

Think, oh, that’s not just a clean energy RD, this is an RD period

Lynn Abramson (21:34):

Pretty broad. And so we’ve been working with the small business,

Jon Powers (21:37):

So pharmaceuticals for all these other players. Yeah,

Lynn Abramson (21:39):

Exactly. And there are bigger picture, bigger companies than the ones we work with. We’re at least trying to make sure that small businesses can get that retroactively going back and that’s reinstated for the future. So that’s an important thing that we think there’s an opportunity to achieve in tax reform. The other thing that’s big on the radar, that’s something that’s a near term priority is tax, but also the annual budget and appropriation cycle. So the president puts out the budget requesting this is how much I want to fund different agencies and programs. And then Congress has to negotiate and approve that. And that’s something that also kind of begins usually around the March timeframe and goes throughout the summer. And that’s really important. The new administration is going to come in and put their stamp on things and receive which programs are funded. And so you mentioned that it’s not, I think every vote in Congress certainly is important, but in terms of who makes these decisions, it’s the committees. And so the tax side, there’s the House Ways and Means committee, the Senate finance Committee, and then on the funding the budget side, there’s the appropriations committees on both sides. And so the members who sit on those committees and members who control those committees are really important. And so one of our goals is to help to mobilize the small businesses in those states and districts to make sure that they’re reaching the committee members to say, this is how this is directly impacting my business.

Jon Powers (23:11):

And I think for the folks who are listening, you don’t have to understand all that. You have to look to Lynn and others that are in DC can help guide us. And I think it’s a call to action that we should be putting our voices into this one thing. Having been on the other side of the table when I was in the government, I know when you were in the Senate, you hear one thing from an industry group or a network, you hear a bunch of different conversation with saying, Hey, my office in Buffalo, this is what is going to affect us today and this is what matters to the member. It just has a different ring to it. So what are some of the tools, obviously you guys have working on? I mean, do you guys do anything around communications and op-eds? What are some of the different tools people should be considering doing to help advocate here in the next few months?

Lynn Abramson (23:55):

Yeah, so we are planning our annual fly-in slash dial-in to congress. We will see how many people will actually be bringing in person versus having them since one of the silver linings of COVID has been that virtual meetings have become commonplace. So that’s another way that we’ve actually, it’s actually been helpful in some respects in engaging businesses that are outside the beltway because it makes it easier for them to have a presence. So last year we brought more than 30 business leaders into these meetings. We’ve been doing that for years now. In particular, we will be focusing on trying to make sure we bring in those business voices from those districts and states represented by those key committee leaders, but also others that we think could be really influential allies on clean energy policies. So I would say we are going to be reaching out to our members to invite them to participate. So again, be on our mailing lists. You’ll stay tuned for those kind of opportunities. We will be working on business sign on letters on both the tax policy front as well as the budget, the appropriations for Department of Energy and part of what we do, you mentioned op-eds. We also try to make sure we are telling stories. So there’s volume, there’s 200 people sign onto this letter. But then there’s also just the real world examples of hearing, oh,

(25:29):

Here’s my constituent who won a small business innovation research grant. Now employees, 40 employees in my state or district or this company that’s opening its first steel manufacturing plant in Kentucky. I mean, those are exciting stories, right? Yeah, absolutely. And so we try to bring those folks in and we have worked a lot on things like op-eds, letters to the editor. I think that traditional media has changed a bit in which I don’t know if that’s even the best way sometimes. I’m also looking at just what are other ways that we can get these voices out there? And I welcome

Jon Powers (26:05):

Then you did start a podcast with your network.

Lynn Abramson (26:07):

We

Jon Powers (26:07):

Actually, you’d be good at it

Lynn Abramson (26:09):

Or we could rely on podcasts like yours. We actually try that when we

Jon Powers (26:12):

First, no, you should do your own. You’re good at it. It’s

Lynn Abramson (26:15):

Funny, we tried that and they realized it’s so much

Jon Powers (26:17):

Work.

Lynn Abramson (26:21):

We did a couple of episodes and then I was like, oh man, wow. We’re amateurs here.

Jon Powers (26:26):

I will say I have an amazing producer and Colleen Young who helps put that together. So I said, we want

Lynn Abramson (26:30):

To get them on your podcast and other podcasts.

Jon Powers (26:32):

Send ’em our way. We’d love to talk to ’em.

Lynn Abramson (26:35):

We can definitely do that. Yeah, I think I also think this is going to be a critical year to get members of Congress and the boots on the ground in these states and districts, site tours,

Jon Powers (26:47):

Ribbon cuttings

Lynn Abramson (26:48):

Members. Also, we’ve connected members to hearing opportunities. I’ve tested by it before how small business committee a couple times and we’ve had members that we’ve referred when committees were looking for a witness. And that’s amazing to these companies, again, don’t have lobbyists, they wouldn’t have that

Jon Powers (27:06):

Opportunity. So let’s just walk that through for a second for folks that may hear that, oh gosh, that’s scary. How do I do that? It’s actually not wildly complicated. It takes a team. I have had the honor to testify a couple times, I think imagine with Lynn, but there’s plenty of folks who help you get prepared and is not, this isn’t the nomination process to be the Secretary of Defense where you’re going to get thrown a bunch of things. You’re going in and telling your story, providing real term information that’s so critical to the discussion in Washington. Think about the fly-ins. The fly-ins are really not only opportunities to meet. They’re actually great networking opportunities,

Lynn Abramson (27:47):

Meet

Jon Powers (27:47):

Other companies. We find a lot of opportunities through that. I think we as an industry just need to commit in this upcoming year to get out of our comfort zone and go do more and more of this. And I think Lynn, under your guidance and others, I think hopefully we’ll be spending a lot of time in DC to keep a protective barrier around things that really matter to us and try to move some policies forward that need to be included, like the RD act or policy you just discussed.

Lynn Abramson (28:16):

And the other thing I would say is that we’ll kind of mobilize people around these big tent issues as I mentioned, but a lot of times they’ll bring up specific issues that they’re encountering as well. Like I applied for this EPA permit, haven’t heard back yet. And the congressional staff look into some things and talk to some people and perhaps get things unstuck. We’ve had people ask for letters of support for grant applications. CBN is not going to do that for you. We’re not going to pick amongst our children. But if you make that ask, I mean, we’ve seen that happen. We’ve seen congressional offices do that, or you have very specific niche policy issues impacting your business. We can provide a platform for you to engage on that. So I think a lot of times, I mean, we really find that we’ve get a lot of member meetings, particularly in states and districts where it’s not as voluminous. There’s not as many meetings. If you go to California offices, it’s much harder to get meetings than Oregon or Indiana. It just depends where you’re going and how many meetings those offices are getting. But the members enjoy hearing from businesses and the staff really enjoy hearing from businesses.

Jon Powers (29:40):

Yeah, I agree. It’s a much different voice at the

Lynn Abramson (29:42):

Breakout

Jon Powers (29:42):

Table. So one more time for the audience, what’s the website? So if we can sign up and become a member, we can make it 10,000 members in your network soon.

Lynn Abramson (29:50):

And I think we’re close. Give us a couple more of your

Jon Powers (29:53):

Cn.org. Awesome. Well, Lynn, thank you so much for being willing to do this and kickstart our 2025 podcast. And I think for the audience, there’s going to be a lot of conversation in the near future about taking action, something we all need to be doing, and we’re in a very unique time. Thanks for the work that the network’s doing to help organize and get folks engaged. Any sort of last words about what the next few months mean for our industry?

Lynn Abramson (30:22):

I think it just be vocal if you see an opportunity. I would also say too, as I mentioned, we’ll try to put the opportunities out there to our network, but also come to us with your opportunities. If you think, you know what, I really do want to get my story into

(30:41):

My local newspaper, or I want to invite my member of Congress to come tour this new project that I have, or I want to tell them about the great work I’m doing, reach out to us because we can be a conduit for that. And I really appreciate, I think it’s also a critical time for partnerships among different organizations coming from different political backgrounds. We are nonpartisan, but we work with organizations across both sides of the aisle, multiple technologies. It really is a time for everyone to come together and form these coalitions and make sure that the best policies are enacted to help support the clean energy industry

Jon Powers (31:20):

And bring a variety of voices to the table, what’s going to make an impact. Lynn, thank you so much for doing this. I truly appreciate

Lynn Abramson (31:25):

It. Yeah, thanks again for having me.

Jon Powers (31:27):

Yeah, of course. And thanks to Colleen Young, our producer for helping put this together. You can always get more episodes at cleancapital.com. And as always, I look forward to continuing the conversation. Thanks.