Jon Powers:

Welcome to Experts Only podcast, sponsored by Clean Capital. You can learn more at cleancapital.com. I’m your host, Jon Powers. Each week, we explore the intersection of energy, innovation and finance, with leaders across the industry. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jon Powers:

Welcome back to Experts Only podcast. I’m your host, Jon Powers. Before starting today’s conversation, I wanted to just request if you’re going to be at Solar Power International here in Salt Lake City at the end of September, to please reach out to us through cleancapital.com. We’d love to connect in person, whether it be about the podcast or about Clean Capital.

Jon Powers:

And about some of the work that we’ve got going on, or if you’ve got projects you’re looking to sell, this is a great opportunity to meet our Clean Capital team. For today’s conversation, we’re talking to Mike Casey, who’s the president and founder of Cleantech Public Relations Firm Tigercomm. Tigercomm is the longest running comms firm focused on clean energy and the clean economy. Like I said, a great background. And we really talk today about some of the work he’s seeing from some of his premier clients, but also what leaders can do in their companies to really better drive marketing, to engage both the stakeholders they need to engage in the business to business side, or policymakers as well.

Jon Powers:

But we also talk about the need for the industry today to really step up our communications efforts so we’re no longer seen as just an alternative energy, but a mainstream energy and a player here to stay. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Mike, thanks so much for joining us at Experts Only podcast.

Mike Casey:

Thanks, Jon. Thanks for having me.

Jon Powers:

So I want to talk a little bit about your background. You grew up in the West side of Cleveland, you got into democratic politics, worked for folks like governor Dukakis when he ran for president, and again for Clinton when he won in ’92. How did you first decide to dive into the political space?

Mike Casey:

The career trajectory that I’m on now started 30 plus years ago on the first textbook I read in the first college course that I took. It was Lester Brown’s The Twenty-Ninth Day. He was then, and perhaps still is the foremost environmental trends counter in the world. In his book, and it was one of many that he had and went on to write, essentially said that as a species we’re unsustainable in the way we’re operating as a global economy.

Mike Casey:

That is, we’re living off the natural resource based principle rather than the interest. We’re treating our pantry like a toilet, and it’s not going to go well. As I read this book, I felt called to do something about this problem, and began to think about the ways that I could devote myself to doing that. And I, over the next year in my college experience, crafted a sense that politics, the intersection of media, politics and policy was where I could make the biggest contribution. So I volunteered as part of a sophomore college course for a state Senator named Michael Schwarzwalder. Great guy, progressive, visionary-

Jon Powers:

Did you go to school in Ohio?

Mike Casey:

Yeah, Ohio State.

Jon Powers:

Oh, yeah.

Mike Casey:

And targeted for defeat by a then little known political director of the RNC named Lee Atwater.

Jon Powers:

Oh, wow.

Mike Casey:

A Willie Horton style ad. Racist, underhanded, and Schwarzwalder lost. And that night people were … At the party, the election night party, very upset. He had a lot of true believers and there was a lot of tears. And I just thought, “Well, I’m going to take this as an opportunity to learn the rules of the road here.” And if the other side is going to be aggressive and tactically innovative, I will learn to do that too. So I then went into politics and I spent roughly 10 years in politics working at the state, federal, the national level, in government and in campaigns.

Mike Casey:

I then did 12 years in the environmental movement running the national comms operations for two different groups. But along the way, in that second chunk of my career, I had three slow revelations. One, we were trying to beat something with nothing. We were saying-

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

… but we didn’t have a clean economy alternative to offer. Number two, we had a skills and attitude deficit. We did not collect best practices. We didn’t train people. People who were doing environmental communications tend to be second career reporters. They really didn’t understand. It’s a fundamentally different profession.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

And we also were bringing plastic forks to knife fights, to borrow a David Roberts.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Mike Casey:

It was combined what I call the disease of principled loser-ism. The belief that as long as you’re principled, if you get your butt kicked, it’s okay. And I thought, “No. It’s not okay, because guys like Michael Schwarzwalder lose.” And elections matter, and policy-

Jon Powers:

Seeing that more today than ever.

Mike Casey:

Oh, my God. And so actually America is not this unbreakably strong thing. You actually can crash the plane. And it doesn’t take much to crash the plane, because this is a unique success in the human experience of peace and prosperity and human self-actualization. And we have achieved something that nobody else has ever achieved in the history of the world, and it definitely can be screwed up by idiots, morons, and demagogues. So anyway, I’m digressing. But I spent this … That was the second of three deficits, and the third one was we had an infrastructure deficit.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

We did not have ways to deliver this alternative narrative, because the trade associations for renewables were very weak at the time. This is in the early 2000s.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

And I thought, “Man, this is crazy.” So I decided I’d find a way to start something or to join an organization that would devote itself to fixing those three problems, closing those three gaps. And the last choice on the list was starting a firm. I literally had the list in my home.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

I scratched them off as I went to the 2000s and finally said, “Well, okay, I guess I’m starting a firm. You want some something done right? Do it yourself.” So I started this firm. And 14 years later, we are the number one clean economy, marcomm and public affairs firm. We service the wind, solar, battery storage and micro mobility spaces. We help companies succeed with their case making to customers, investors and policy makers.

Jon Powers:

So I’m going to go back to Tigercomm in a few minutes. I want to sort of talk a little bit about first, your personal transformations at that time is really interesting. And I think what you’ve hit is something we actually talk about or I talk about a lot in this show, is how we need to be out … One of the reasons we started this podcast is we need to be communicating better as an industry. One of the things that I’ve been really focused on, if you look back … Since 2008 when you had the American Recovery Act start to push forward, technology began to align and mature. Solar panels weren’t a new thing, but the policies were starting to get in place at the national level and the state level for them to move.

Jon Powers:

Finance began to move. We’ve now hit a phenomenal curve of growth. But the mindset in a lot of the industry today continues to be that of an alternative energy source versus a mainstream player in the market. And when we look at what’s happening with … We’ve got good leaders developing at a solar energy industry association, Acore and AWEA and others. We’re still missing the American petroleum institute side of clean energy here, where we’re punching folks in the teeth to move our stuff forward. And I feel like we’re now maturing into a industry that has to do that. We talked a little bit before the show about your paradox of clean energy marketing article that you wrote. Can you talk a little bit about that, and how it sort of ties into where we are today?

Mike Casey:

Yeah. My colleague Sarah Lippincott and I wrote something called No Time For Legacy. It’s one of our foundational books, and it essentially says that a lot of clean economy companies are engaged in B2B sales. And if you number line the economy, from put it at one end, you put B2C companies that have a very light bricks and mortar presence. They have point of purchase websites like Amazon, like Thrive Markets.

Mike Casey:

These companies have to do online digital communications well, or they would never have grown and they would die out very quickly. At the very far other end of the economy are large B2B companies that have long lead time products. So, flexible technology turbines that take five years to sell. Wind farms, it takes several years to sell. And down at that end, there has not been a historical reason, a historical imperative to get digital marcomm right. Because you can get pretty good success, or you’ve been able to get pretty good success by traditional retail sales contact.

Mike Casey:

But the problem is that the marketing research literature is increasingly clear, that past an impulse purchase of a cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts … Americans, if it’s got any dollar amount attached to it, are increasingly relying in the early part of their purchase decision on online search and content. This is true in the B2B space. It’s true for your firm.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

It’s true for large wind and solar OEMs, and it’s definitely true for renewable energy project developers. And the book is a case for taking the best of B2C point of purchase website companies’ practices and adopt them over to the B2B space to catch up with the reality of Americans’ buying patterns.

Jon Powers:

Interesting. Do you feel like a lot of the folks in the clean energy space are then focusing too much on the traditional media and focusing on putting their message out through … Ads is probably the wrong term because you don’t even see that many of them, but whether it’d be trying to influence policy makers and others through their letters to the editors, and their op-eds versus sort of targeted campaigns.

Mike Casey:

Yeah. The two glass of wine on a Saturday night dream for a lot of clean economy company executive teams is my profile piece in the Wall Street Journal. And what we’ve seen in the last 10 years, definitely the last five years almost in a hockey stick graph steepness is the decline in the importance of what we call organic eyeballs. So what I mean by that geeky PR term is that it used to be … When I started my career, Americans consumed content from in much more predictable ways, from far fewer, much larger outlets. And that was true, whether it was a local media market or at a national company. You now have basically taken the media vase and you dropped it on the floor and shattered it into lots of pieces. You still have the same amount of porcelain, but it just is in a lot more smaller pieces.

Mike Casey:

So what I mean by this is we now have the decline of the importance of one big story in the Wall Street Journal. You have the rise and importance of lots of website chatter from Seeking Alpha, Motley Fool, et cetera. So when you get sustained attention in more smaller places, it adds up to what that one Wall Street Journal story used to get you, and it eclipses what one Wall Street Journal now gets you. Because if you look at your own media consumption habits, I’ll bet you don’t spend nearly the amount of time reading news on dead trees dropped at the end of your driveway.

Jon Powers:

No.

Mike Casey:

You’re reading aggregators. We’re an information hummingbird culture, where we sip and we fly it to something else. We sip and we fly to something else. And my point here is that clean economy companies are not … They’re living too much in a legacy mindset that mainstream media is the lion’s share of important attention getting. Don’t get me wrong, it still is important, but its role has shifted, one from driving attention in and of itself, to giving you attention you can do something with in what we call second bounce eyeballs.

Mike Casey:

In other words, let’s say that there is a Wall Street Journal profile done on you and your firm. The number of new investors you would get out of that would be surprisingly small. But if you take that Wall Street Journal profile and you did something on your website with it and you did some social advertising around it, and you did a whole bunch of LinkedIn messaging using the Wall Street Journal’s stories excerpts to a bunch of prospects that are in the midway through the sales funnel, you would get much more traction. So my point is our companies are neglecting building program to do something with the big nameplate pieces of attention that they want so much to get. And some of them deserve it, but many of them … If you’re a startup, you’re living in this NPR Guy Raz interview mentality. “If we just hit the bank shot, we hit that-”

Jon Powers:

I would say Jon Powers experts only mentality, but yes.

Mike Casey:

Everybody listens to the lightning strike startup that grew big because it rolled the dice and it got some free PR and that picked it up. We get calls, I still get calls I’d say a couple of times a month. We get an inbound lead from a company that’s got a really cool technology. And they are, as they should be, in love with the coolness of that technology. But what they’re banking on, they want to pay us a little tiny bit of money to get them the million dollar Wall Street Journal story. I just want to tell them, “Dude, there’s no such thing as a million dollar Wall Street Journal anymore. It just doesn’t happen.”

Jon Powers:

So this is really interesting. First of all, this is the way that political communications is going. You’re seeing at the campaigns space-

Mike Casey:

100%.

Jon Powers:

There’s no doubt about it. All the fights over the Facebook data that happened in the last major election was because they were trying to target these folks, not because they were trying to put in mailers that went to their house or the CNN ads as much. But if you’re a clean energy developer or maybe you’re even a technology company that is sort of emerging in this space, how do you then approach this? How do you put together a sort of targeted campaign to help raise awareness? Because the reality is your target audience, unless you’re a consumer based platform that’s selling solar panels to Sunrun or whoever people’s rooftops, you are focused on sort of CNI, right? Or local developers. How do you sort of devise that more targeted campaign to influence those players?

Mike Casey:

Great question, and it’s one that we answer in the second part of that book. But essentially the good news and the opportunity in innovating a new B2B marcomm approach is that the reality for B2C point of purchase website companies is they’re marketing to millions. They have to rely on algorithms to feed the website visitor. People who bought this product also bought this. That’s an algorithm derived suggestion. But B2B clean economy companies market to hundreds or thousands.

Jon Powers:

Exactly.

Mike Casey:

That is our typical company that we are working for. If you take the total head count on decision making chains within their customer prospect list, it’s usually no more than 2,500 people. And that then allows us to go from prototypes, personas to profiling. So if you are one of the 2,500 people that I want to market to, the good news about digital technology is we are moving ever closer to be able to custom communicate to Jon, and we can do that now. This is the heart of the answer to your question.

Mike Casey:

By having tight integration with marcomm and sales efforts when … If you’re a client of mine and you come to our website as you move down the sales funnel, we’ve optimized our website so we can see you behaving in certain ways on our site. “Oh, Jon downloaded this ebook.” That’s a signal for us, me as the retail sales guy here at the firm, to reach out and contact you. “Jon, I’ve noticed you downloaded our book, we’d like to get your thoughts on this.”

Mike Casey:

And if your needs are addressed in this book and fire approach, I’d like to have a conversation with you about it. You don’t want to take or make contact with me until you have decided through searching content, your own early decision making to … That you’re ready for such a conversation. So this is the point, the marketing literature is showing us that up to 60% of the B2B purchase decision, the early stage of that is being made through online search and content before the buyer will take or make contact with the seller. That is a key principle, and it’s the one that is the most ignored in clean economy companies’ marketing approaches.

Jon Powers:

Yeah. I can hear colleagues who are CEOs of sort of a mid tier clean energy company say, “I’ve got a sales force out selling this stuff.” They think of marketing I think as pretty common as PR.” And not in how it ties in. I look at some of your client base, right? Vestas for new financial, Apex is an amazing company in Charlottesville. How are their CEOs thinking of this differently? And if you were stepping into sort of lead, growing sort of emerging company, how would you structure a team sort of to go after this?

Mike Casey:

One, I would make sure that my head of marketing and head of sales see their jobs as absolutely intertwined. We’ve seen companies in the past where the heads of those two operations, they barely talk to each other.

Jon Powers:

Exactly.

Mike Casey:

And it’s insane. If you’re a CEO, why the hell do you have marketing if its purpose is not to support commercial outcomes. And in a digital age, that line has gone from dotted to solid. There’s cause and effect. So what I’m not saying, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that all of corporate America needs to take SVP for marketing and put him or her under the SVP for sales. But I’m saying it’s an existential question in digital age when we can increasingly digitally observe customer behavior. The purpose of marketing I think has to be updated.

Mike Casey:

It must be to engage discrete groups of people to help them move from awareness, attitude, to behavior chains. I.e., moving down the sales funnel toward a greater and greater readiness to buy the product. And the tracking of it is critical intelligence for sales forces. So to stay with the answer of your question, what I would make sure that marcomm sees that we’re not doing general awareness because there is no such thing.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

And anytime I hear corporate communications teams use the words general public, I know we have legacy thinking. Absolutely, 100% of the time. There’s no such thing as a general public, and there hasn’t been since I was in graduate school in 1986. We have a country of 325 million human beings walking around the United States of America. And I want you to tell me what the general public look like. No such thing. There’s this demographic and psychographic groups. So the general audience identification is the refuge of the marketing lazy.

Jon Powers:

Interesting. So with the limited time we’ve got left, I’d like to talk for a second about sort of Tigercomm and if you can give sort of a case study maybe of what you guys are doing, that’d be interesting to the audience sort of in this space. And then I do want to step back and sort of talk about the broader climate and clean energy fight in the play that communication has into it.

Mike Casey:

Okay, so you want a case study, let’s think about …

Jon Powers:

Or just an example. If people are thinking through like how would I engage a firm like Tigercomm, and why would I engage a firm?

Mike Casey:

Oh. This is where I get to pitch our services.

Jon Powers:

Of course. Yeah. By the way, I asked that because I think a lot of people see this as we’re going to engage a PR firm right before we make a big announcement to do a press release. Right? And I think that’s the standard traditional mentality. Which I disagree with, but I think that’s not your approach.

Mike Casey:

No, that’s a V8 moment. You’re slapping your forehead. For people who are at that stage, you just kind of want to wrap your arms around them and say, “Come here. I love you. Sit down. Let me have a heart to heart with you.” Because it’s legitimate to hire firms to provide you surge capacity in the rare times when you were … Communications needs exceed your in house communications capacity. That’s legitimate, but the idea of public relations really should be updated to view it as attention worthiness, attention generation and audience engagement.

Mike Casey:

And I’m using that term with great care because we did the first ever analysis of the pushback, the online pushback that wind developers are getting around wind farms. And which companies are doing what to counter online the pushback they’re getting from NIMBYs. So we’re seeing now half a billion dollar power plants basically get killed because a hundred people are in a room in a rural community objecting to it.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

There’s a loud minority yelling down the silent majority that wants this job creating, power creating, revenue creating, iconic structure in their communities. And what we found is that companies for a variety of reasons have largely seeded the digital space to the NIMBYs.

Jon Powers:

Interesting. So you’ve got three quarter of Americans want a 100% renewable energy, but it’s those 25% that are getting targeted by the anti developers, and then showing up and voicing their community.

Mike Casey:

I’ll do you one better.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Mike Casey:

Lawrence Livermore National Labs, Berkeley National Labs did shortly after the Gatehouse Media hatchet job … Written by, not kidding you, written by a summer intern asserting that there was this rash of health concerns of oppressed communities that wind farms were keeping people up at night. It was strobing and flashing and all that stuff. Lawrence Livermore National Labs did the definitive study of people living within five miles, three miles, one mile and a half mile from wind farms.

Mike Casey:

People living within a half mile of wind farms, the vast majority said they were very satisfied or satisfied living next to one. So you go from a stupid, poorly executed hatchet job with no factual basis and more stretches to give an entire gymnastics team a grind poll-

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Mike Casey:

Versus the definitive study that actually talked to people in a methodical way, and they found a very different experience. So anyway, coming back to what we’re talking about. We know definitively from the data that people who end up living near wind farms very close, within a half mile, the vast majority of them, no problems. Very satisfied. They actually think it’s pretty, it’s cool.

Jon Powers:

So I do want to step back for a second, and with the limited time we have left and ask … So if you were able to look at sort of the clean energy advocacy space today and bring one change to bear to really help this industry take the next step and move from the alternative energy mindset to the American Petroleum Institute mindset, what would you do?

Mike Casey:

I’ll give you a figurative answer and I’ll give you a specific answer. There’s a slight challenge to the premise of the question. Too many of our companies are relying on their association dues to get them everything. It reminds me of a joke I heard from my dad who was in the Marines. There was a joke that the beatings will continue until the morale improves.

Jon Powers:

Right, right.

Mike Casey:

It’s just like … Look, you get what you pay for. And if you look at the small amount of dues that our companies are paying these associations, and then they’re beating on them because we’re not giving them enough. It’s just kind of like, well … I mean, is any trade association perfect? No, but I know the three major trade associations in the clean economy space quite well. We’ve worked for all of them and they’re pretty good.

Jon Powers:

Yeah, they are.

Mike Casey:

We look for waste inefficiency and room for improvement at API. We’d find way more of it, even though they’ve got massive budgets. My challenge to the premise is not that our trade associations are perfect, but is to say that our companies are engaged in magical thinking. They think that small dues to association adds up to enough collective resources that we can get our job done, and that’s not true. You got to do both. So the disruptors challenge is that when you’re creating a new sector within an industry dominated by powerful incumbents, you must overinvest proportionally to those who are creating a new industry. Google created a new industry, wind energy is creating a new sector. And there is a fundamental difference, because incumbent sectors see you coming and they’re bigger.

Mike Casey:

They’ve been around for 150-200 … We’ve been burning coal in this world for 250 years. The coal industry sees you coming. The gas industry sees you coming. They’ve got enough bandwidth to interrupt your disruption of their finances. No one was doing that to Google. You don’t have an unfettered operating environment. So if you have disruptors needs, you cannot have disruptor budget. You’ve got to overinvest proportionally. So that’s my specific investment. Is it a self-interested one? Absolutely.

Jon Powers:

Sure.

Mike Casey:

The more that budgets grow, the more that funds like mine get hired. I didn’t answer your …

Jon Powers:

No, no, no. You did. I think first of all, I appreciate the challenge, and I think that I really liked the … One of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation is I feel like there’s a lot of folks in the industry that need that push to move this level of thought and communication forward. Today we’re seeing the investment tax credit fight being led by SIA with asks of their teams for simple things like sign on letters.

Jon Powers:

One of the things we did at Clean Capital is we went through all of our assets, identified what districts are in, who the member was, and we’re sending letters to that member. It was an intern driven project, but it’ll have some really important impact we hope on the ITC. And if all the players across the industry did that type of initiative, we could really elevate into those key offices the importance of something like the investment tax credit for what it will do to grow jobs in this country and grow the sector. But I think a lot of people just think they don’t have the bandwidth for a policy team or marketing team. They don’t put their budget in the right place to make a big impact.

Mike Casey:

Yeah, very few of them. For very few of them is it true they don’t have the bandwidth, they just haven’t made the allocation decisions.

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

And I’ll make another point. For a lot of our companies, there is an economy of opportunity between marcomm and public affairs. So the act of you contacting people in your professional network for this existential call up actually gives you an opportunity that’s a marcomm opportunity. You have a reason to touch prospects, customers, refresh relationships. And it’s not on a, “Please buy this from me basis. Right? I think we are … The tightest answer I can give to ‘what’s the one thing changed question’ is there are some basic block and tackle things that we can do with very little extra investment that would markedly improve our punching power. Here’s an example. Six years ago I spoke before the executive committee AWEA board up in Anchorage, Alaska. I suggested that we not build any more wind farms for several hundred million dollars without spending several tens of thousands of dollars to set up a visitor center. Why the hell would you build a $350 million wind farm and not build a $35,000 visitor center? It can be a double wide.

Jon Powers:

Yeah.

Mike Casey:

And why? Because they’re all in rural areas. People in rural areas like to know how things work.

Jon Powers:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Casey:

They are interested in gear and how things work in technology. They’re much more in tune with like the reality of the economy. And why aren’t we leveraging that, for God’s sakes. If we had a visitor center and you paid a local retired vet at the minimalist amount of money to get trained on how to give a good tour and you started concentric circling out in the community, you would make this …

Jon Powers:

Bring the lion’s club in, bring the rotor in.

Mike Casey:

Exactly. And then over time, guess what? You then merge that into your public affairs operation, and you’re tracking your community approval ratings. You become an iconic part of that community. And if politicians know that, then the next time it’s a lot harder to not take the meeting understanding the production tax credit. The same thing is true with solar. But Jonny, one question you did ask that I didn’t answer, which is very generous of you to ask is, “Why hire us?” I guess I’ll try to give the more existential, less pitchy answer to that question.

Mike Casey:

PR firms are like housing contractors. There’s some good ones and they tend to be pretty busy, and then there’s a lot of rip off artists. And the PR industry in general makes a lot of its money through three or four fundamental off-told falsehoods. And so the bottom line is if you are a clean economy company, you need to not let pixie dust get thrown in your eyes on silly promises.

Mike Casey:

Like we’ve got a lot of connections or we’ve got global offices, and therefore we’ll deploy it all for you. I’ve seen it happen a million times. What you should hear is, that’s a rip off. You get bait and switch on teams. The people selling you the service are not the teams that ended up servicing you. The company does not have a deep understanding of the sector. And here’s the most important thing. If you’re going to hire a firm like ours, it’s on you to make sure you understand what they’ve done in the past that’s a lot like what you need done for them.

Jon Powers:

I like it. So one final question I ask everyone who is on the show. If you can go back to yourself and West Cleveland or graduated from Ohio State and have a beer as your future self, what piece of advice would you give your younger self?

Mike Casey:

Good question. My favorite saying from Confucius is, “Those who say something cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it.” In other words, if I could go back and coach my younger self, I would coach him to treat naysayers and down talkers as challenge issuers rather than people possessing any sort of knowledge or authority. Because there are a lot of folks along the way who said, “Oh, that can’t be done or you can’t do that.”

Jon Powers:

Right.

Mike Casey:

My luck of the Irish kicked in a little bit later than it should’ve in the arc of my life, but now that’s usually an indication of, “Yeah. Well, let’s see about that.”

Jon Powers:

Yeah, that’s great advice, and I think this is the first time we’ve had Confucius quoted on this show. So Mike, I really appreciate you joining us. You guys are doing really, really interesting work at Tigercomm. And for folks that don’t know, you can go to … Tigercomm is T-I-G-E-R-C-O-M-M.us to learn more. Thanks so much for joining us.

Mike Casey:

Jon, my pleasure.

Jon Powers:

And thanks so much for the producers of our show, Carly Battin. And for all our listeners at Experts Only, we sort of welcome your feedback. Please go to cleancapital.com to get more episodes. We’ve got over 50 now, and continue to sort of grow our audience, so we thank you for taking the time and we look forward to continuing the conversation.

Jon Powers:

Thanks for listening in today’s conversation. Find more episodes on cleancapital.com, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe and leave us a five star review. We look forward to continuing our conversation on energy, innovation, and finance with you.