Jon Powers: Welcome to Experts Only podcast sponsored by CleanCapital. You can learn more at CleanCapitol.com. I’m your host Jon powers. Each week we explore the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance with leaders across the industry. Thank you so much for joining us. Jon Powers: Welcome back to Experts only podcast. I’m your host Jon Powers. Today we talk to Joe Bonfiglio from the Environmental Defense Fund C4 EDF Action. Joe got a vast amount of experience, both in policy and politics. And what we explore here is climate and the election here in 2020. Both before the COVID outbreak, and of course afterwards. So it’s a really interesting deep dive into the way that the current cultural movement around climate is affecting politics. As always, you can get more episodes at CleanCapital.com. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Jon Powers: Joe, thanks so much for joining us at Experts Only. Joe Bonfiglio: Hey, John. Good to be here. Jon Powers: So I want to step back and talk a little bit about you grew up in North Carolina, you ended up going to work on Capitol Hill. First of all, where in sort of growing up, did you get the bug that you wanted to end up in Washington and get involved with politics? Joe Bonfiglio: That’s funny, pretty early on. And I’m 40 now and it’s sort of like put the way back machine on, the economy was shifting to computers. And my mother was really fixated on me getting into computers. She thought that’d be exactly the right thing for me. I said, you know what? I think this politics thing is pretty cool. She, along with my family tried to talk me out of it. So we’re talking, high school 15, 16. Trying to sort of direct me out of this thing that nobody understood or nobody knew. The Bonfiglios have zero political background, not the family business by any stretch. So pretty early on, I thought this would be a sort of Jon Powers: What did your parents do? Joe Bonfiglio: My father is a jeweler and my mother was an administrative assistant. Joe Bonfiglio: So definitely not the family business. In fact, the family business would have been going to be a jeweler. But I really wanted to go and figure out how to make a difference, sort of the calling into public service. At least for me was government. And I really want to find the best possible path there. So through school, sort of just got my feet wet with the work and had interest in it, but then really had to figure out how to make it happen after. Jon Powers: And what was your entrance to the Hill? How did you decide, was it through communications? Was it a specific policy issue? What brought you into … And for folks that aren’t familiar with Washington, there’s a bunch of different sort of first day jobs you can get there. Jon Powers: Most of them are there sort of as a policy person, or if you’re really senior, a senior policy person or communications, right. There’s a variety of ways to touch or interning. What was your introduction? Joe Bonfiglio: That’s right. And I didn’t get any of them. In fact, I moved up to Washington D.C. Took the advice of move up there, get your resume out there and walk the Hill. I did that. I tried that and failed miserably. Moved up about 12 days before September 11th. And then spent about four months trying to get a job on Capitol Hill through September 11th, through the anthrax attacks on Capitol Hill. I like to joke, although it’s not a joke. I was trying to get the job opening congressional mail while someone was trying to kill the guy opening the mail. So I was not successful at all. Joe Bonfiglio: And it’s the part of the story that I tell when anyone sort of wants to break into the business. Like there’s no one path. I ended up going back from North Carolina hopped on a political campaign. Worked for free before eventually getting paid just a little bit of money that person won. And I ended up coming up to Washington D.C. with then Congressman Brad Miller. Jon Powers: Yeah, of course. Joe Bonfiglio: 2002. Jon Powers: Yeah. That’s interesting. How happy were your parents then when you had a job? Joe Bonfiglio: I mean, they still didn’t quite get it. I mean, and really we’ll sort of get to it later, but really until Trump won in 2016, then I think my mother finally say, I get it. It matters. But a family that was fundamentally not political voted, I think most of the time. But then it just sort of kind of crystallizes for people in different times. Joe Bonfiglio: And for her, it was very late. I had been in the gig for a while and in the game for a while. Jon Powers: No, I get it. My folks, my mom was a teacher. My dad had been at Sears and then Allstate for almost 40 years as an insurance salesman. And when I ran for Congress, it was like their first real political thing. Right. And matter of fact, I grew up Republican and didn’t know until I ran for Congress, that my dad became a Republican only so he could get a job in the town highway department because his dad had been the democratic chair in another County that I ended up running for. That’s how little politics we ever discussed at home. So it’s interesting. It took years for them to figure out what I do. I don’t think they still have any idea what I do. Jon Powers: My dad listens to this podcast but that’s about it. Joe Bonfiglio: Well, I mean, when you ran, did they jump in? Jon Powers: Yeah. My dad is like the most gregarious social person. My campaign manager pulled me aside at one point he’s like, I think I ran the wrong Powers. My dad was working the room talking to everybody. So yeah, they got super involved. My mom worked the phones. She was probably one of my most powerful messengers. Right. Just calling other mothers and I had just got back from Iraq. So, so yeah, let’s go back to you for a second. So you ended up on the Hill working for Brad Miller and then you sort of moved around the Hill to a couple of different roles. Where in that space, that sort of energy, environment, climate change, start to get into your vernacular. What sort of hatched that seat? Joe Bonfiglio: Yeah. I had spent a bit of time in the Senate, but really didn’t start until I popped back over to the house. I was chief of staff to a South Louisiana Democrat, a Cajun named Charlie Melancon. He was a sort of blue dog Democrat on the Energy and Commerce Committee. And this was 2009, 2010. Smack dab in the middle of both healthcare and cap and trade fight in Congress. And that was just such a interesting time to be doing the work. If you’re a political nerd and a policy geek in any way, that was just an amazing time to see really big things try to get done. Healthcare got over the finish line, cap and trade did not. And it was one of those unfinished business things that always sort of lingered with me. Joe Bonfiglio: And now we are so far from 2008, 2009, ’10, when that fight was. But to sort of watch the issue mature and just become so much more politically salient and over this last 10 years. It’s really been a sort of fun ride. I’m glad I got the bug, at least on the issue back then and I’m stuck with it. Jon Powers: Yeah. I mean, just reflecting, like we almost had a bipartisan Senate bill with Kerry McCain. Was it Graham, that if that would have gone, we would have time in legislation in 2009. It was probably that close and- Joe Bonfiglio: Incredibly close. Jon Powers: Yeah. And there’s a lot of lessons to come out of that, including the fact that the environmental climate community wasn’t prepared to offend the blue dogs and others that voted for the climate bill to begin with. Jon Powers: And I think that scared a lot of senators off, but at the same point, they haven’t gone to work at the Pentagon. Not long after that. People just didn’t use the word climate change for years in Washington. Right. And then it’s re surged, it’s come back into a very positive way. You and I talked about this before last year in particular, you had the emergence of Greta in the cultural awakening. That’s continued to move forward. I want to jump forward to EDF here and sort of the political awakening, hopefully that will continue to move forward on. But what took you from the Hill into the advocacy side? And I do want to talk about EDF Action. And sort of what the mission is. Joe Bonfiglio: Yeah. And you actually alluded to that a bit in that transition, in that during the cap and trade fight, there was no cover right for politicians to step out. And the other side was … it was to remember the moment. It was that pivot from issue advocacy to politics, citizens united. It was exactly that moment where politicians were getting beat up in direct mail, radio, TV on every single thing that they did. And in this case too hot button issues. Healthcare, and climate cap and trade or cap as it became a sort of well driven home. And what drew me to EDF was a very much knew what was missing from that fight. And it was the ability to influence folks back home and congressional districts in key states, the same way that the issue opponents had been doing and wanting to grow EDF Action. Joe Bonfiglio: Posted this job to help a manager of this organization that they wanted to grow. I thought that was intriguing. And it sort of drew me from the Hill and really have been here for just about nine years. Jon Powers: Yeah. So for folks that are not familiar with the politics side of things, EDF, we keep talking about is environmental defense fund. And there is a C3 nonprofit arm that does amazing policy work, legislative work, advocacy work. But once you get more and more political on that work, you’ve got to create what’s known as a C4 which is a different tax treatment to money raised. Joe runs the C4 side of that. Can you talk a little bit about sort of the mission of EDF C4, EDF Action and maybe how that mission has sort of evolved I guess? Joe Bonfiglio: Absolutely. So EDF Action is EDF’s advocacy partner as we term it. And the organization does really two things, it is the lobbying entity or a lobbying arm for EDF, not just in Congress, but in key states. For folks that are sort of tuning in. And if you’re listening, don’t know EDF, it is a global organization, but has a really big domestic program of work so that we are pressing for change in Congress, but we’re also pressing for change in New Mexico and Colorado, California. Joe Bonfiglio: And the 501 C4 is the primary lobbying vehicle. But it also has the ability to influence politics. This is something that we’ve added over time. Really started in 2014 and then of course, sort of eyeing a big election cycle in 2020. We are able to influence politics in a number of ways either by helping raise money for candidates, or in some cases executing what are called independent expenditure campaigns. Joe Bonfiglio: Those paid communications that are in support, or are sort of against a politician, be it a Congressman or a Senator, or in the case of last cycle candidates for a water board in Arizona. So being able to weigh in and influence how those perceive these individual candidates is really incredibly necessary part of the work. And it’s scaled at EDF Action for really in the last couple of years. Jon Powers: Yeah. Let’s go back to the water board side. I want to talk through that as sort of as a case study. For folks that are sort of unfamiliar with why this influence matters, to take it out of Washington for a second, and talk about as much as you can the role that you guys played and add some color to why that race was important and important setting policy going forward. Joe Bonfiglio: We do the elevator of … the background of why this became important. And we’ll sort of get to the political expenditure. Water is hugely important in the Colorado River basin and out West. It is certainly quantity and quality issue, but quantity and given all the agriculture and all the irrigation out there, it is just a tremendous hot button issue. And coming to any sort of progress on these issues that are so difficult takes years. So for the better part of the last five, 10 years, the States in and around this watershed had been trying to come up with a water conservation plan or an agreement of pact between these key States. Arizona was a holdout and Arizona was a holdout for a variety of reasons. But they just couldn’t quite align the water districts, the folks that assign water rights to various entities, wasn’t bought in on a plan, legislature wasn’t bought in on a plan. Joe Bonfiglio: And of course, when you don’t have that type of alignment, you can’t get it. So there was an opportunity in 2018 to help shape the water board. And the water board had a number of open seats in Maricopa County, really Phoenix, the really big County, there’s a ton of people. And there was a number of seats that were open. And there were a number of candidates that were water conservation minded candidates for this board. And we saw this as an opportunity to help shape who was on this board and show that there was a lot of support for finally pushing forward, finally moving forward on this water conservation plan, we did that by backing these candidates, they ended up winning seats on the board and fast forward, the next six months went as quickly as you could have ever hoped the board came together, approved again, this multi-state pack. Joe Bonfiglio: The legislature approved the plan that the board moved through. And actually, I was like, there’s a piece in Congress. The Arizona delegation actually brought up before Congress, passed through Congress. And now, again, some of that took nearly 10 years from the idea through its implementation, there’s a plan out West to divvy up water and conserve water. And I just don’t think that would have happened in the timeframe that we just talked about without that political push. Jon Powers: It’s why politics matters to policy, right. I think it’s critical. Joe Bonfiglio: Absolutely. Jon Powers: So, we’re doing this interview, it’ll air later, but this is literally on Earth Day. We’re both doing it in our home because of COVID-19. And I’m going to look at the 2020 campaign with you a little bit here, but I want to look at it first, pre COVID and then look at sort of the last 60 to 90 day push at the end of the year, starting obviously with probably what’s on most people’s mind, the presidential. But then, talk a little bit about the house and Senate as well. Jon Powers: There’s no doubt about it. Climate was elevating up as a top tier issue, especially during the primaries, but across the country in a way that at least in my lifetime, I don’t remember being at this level before. Can you talk for a second about what you guys were seeing in terms of numbers there and the interest of the sort of the voting public on these issues. Joe Bonfiglio: Yeah. And you hadn’t seen in your lifetime. I hadn’t seen in my lifetime, the issue has and I don’t want to say past tense there, because I think there’s an underlying thread of this that will remain. But climate pop is a salient political issue really in 2018 and 2019 just took on a life of its own. I think you had Anthony Leiserowitz on your podcast before. Joe Bonfiglio: He runs Yale’s climate communications program. And their tracker is something that we always go back to, and it’s a great sort of where the issue has been, where it is now. And their tracker in 2019 saw just an incredible amount of growth as people crystallize on the problem. Saw that it needed a solution. And then again, to attach that to politics. So, from his survey, more than four in 10 registered voters, about 45% said that a candidates position on global warming would be very important to their vote in the 2020 presidential. And that was an increase of seven points in just about a sort of that critical three month period of time when the democratic candidates in 2019 were sort of just marching out there. Joe Bonfiglio: And that growth was not just Democrats. Democrats in that survey were up about eight points in that sort of measure, but also in independence. I think that’s a nod back to what we saw in 2018. The issue- Jon Powers: The cultural moment at that time, is that an admits of sort of the Greta- Joe Bonfiglio: The moment of Greta, and again, you’re sort of seeing not just that and the awareness on the issue, but people connecting it to their vote. The idea that climate moved from, and it’s always been on the issue set. So when political nerds look at how people are thinking about who they vote for, they sort of rank issues. And the issue list that I just tested could be 25 issues long and the climate across the political spectrum was at about 11 on that list. But that had been up nearly six or seven points from the year prior. Joe Bonfiglio: But since that cultural moment pushed the intensity of the issue in their brains. And in turn, how they’re going to factor their vote. But among Democrats, and this is where I think you really saw it sort of play with politics. It was a top three issue with liberal Democrats, their number one issue. Joe Bonfiglio: So you saw the early primary States of Iowa and New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina, where candidates are going through talking about the core issues of those States. And then everyone’s doing a riff on climate. Because it was just one of those, in that moment, a flash point in politics and democratic politics. But I think in politics at large. Jon Powers: Yep. Interesting. So let’s go to say January, right before we sort of began to really think through and launch our shelter in place in March. Jon Powers: Was that momentum continuing? I mean, we’ve probably had gotten through Iowa, we weren’t in a place where Biden was the nominee, but that momentum that interest as people started to go to the polls in January and February, did we see evidence that continued forward? Joe Bonfiglio: Absolutely. And in the closing days of some of those early primary states, you had, again, candidates communicating on climate in a very short campaign of Michael Bloomberg, who ramped up and ramped out about as quickly as I’ve ever seen spending massive amount of money. This is a candidate that quickly learned that in order to reach voters, you had to talk about climate and ran in some cases, three different climate ads in key States. Joe Bonfiglio: At one point, Michael Bloomberg had three different climate ads up in Florida. Jon Powers: Wow. Florida. Joe Bonfiglio: Again, it’s a little bit of, it’s an non-scientific, but I’ll tell you, they were doing the research to figure out that that was necessary. And of course the resources to allow that type of variety. But, again, that feels like a million years ago, but it was really just a few months ago. Jon Powers: Yeah. Less than 60 days when you think about it. So, now we sit here as we’re having this conversation, Bernie has officially come out and backed Biden. The democratic party has started to come behind a nominee. I think we both agree, obviously that this is probably the most dangerous president of our time to our issues, whether it be EPA undercutting, methane issues, or, just undercutting science as a whole. To the point that for the first time ever EDF action, which is a bipartisan organization, came out that counter the president. Jon Powers: Do you want to talk for a second about that effort at EDF? And then I do want to talk about sort of the last three months of the campaign. Joe Bonfiglio: Yeah, absolutely. And I credit Trump and this unfortunate last of actually driving some of that movement of the political salience of climate. So it’s a bit of a tangent, but people sort of wonder why voters have focused on this issue. I actually think Trump is one of those reasons. Jon Powers: Oh, interesting. Joe Bonfiglio: Because his language on climate has been denialism calling it a hoax, calling it a Chinese hoax actually to be fair, it’s unfortunately true. The administration has walked the walk or walked the talk. I think the New York Times has a running tracker of more than 100 anti-environmental actions the Trump administration has either started or finished in the three and a half years at they’ve been running the show. Joe Bonfiglio: We did a quick look at what EDF and EDF Action were working against. We were working against, I think 37 of those directly. So had our hands full across a range of issues. But on climate, even just, I think a week or two ago, trying to finalize and push through the auto rules, the auto efficiency rules. I don’t even think that the automobile industry wants to fight just because of the timing here. They want to get it done before a new Congress comes in or a potentially new president comes in. So it’s locked in. So even in the midst of this health crisis, you are seeing just the focus of an administration to do as much as they possibly can to unravel climate and environmental progress. Jon Powers: Yeah. It’s interesting. I feel like that’s a such an untold story or this image because people focus on what he says, what he tweets. I don’t think he actually has a whole bunch of personal anxiety around these issues at all, but he puts in charge a coal lobbyist at the EPA or cowboy department of interior and they just tear apart, especially at EPA, they came with their knives, they knew what they were doing. They went after the rules and they’ve done things that people just don’t really pay attention to in the general public that are going to have longterm detrimental impacts to our health and the health of our planet. Joe Bonfiglio: Very smart and very smartly are not dismissing rules, it’s rewriting them. They’re rewriting them to do nothing. So again, the president’s language is kind of buffoonish, but the team that is undermining a lot of these environment productions knows exactly what they’re doing. Jon Powers: Exactly. And I think for people that don’t understand, like the rules process, so you can’t just fix it day one, you got to go back in, it’ll take years of a new administration to get us back to where we were a near loss and progress. So let’s look ahead. We expect to have a Biden candidacy versus Trump here in 2020 leading into November. Traditional politics there was going to be a convention this summer, where folks are laying out their platforms. And then, folks go to Ohio and Pennsylvania in October, knock on doors to try to get their candidate elected, who knows if that’s even going to be possible, if they’re going to be doing it in masks or are able to go at all. How does COVID effect the election this year? Jon Powers: How do you guys sort of think of your playbook? And as much as you want to share, your ability to affect that? And will climate be an issue people are voting on again, or is it just literally the incompetence around COVID that’s going to drive this? How does this sort of begin to play out the next few months? Joe Bonfiglio: Whenever this launches, these answers could be woefully out of date. I think we’re in this moment Jon Powers: Yeah. That’s true. Joe Bonfiglio: We are expecting this health crisis to shift to an economic crisis or an economic recovery, or sort of an economic recovery. God knows when. So, we’re trying to figure out this election and it is a very classic moving target. Use your analogy, Lucy pulling the football. Joe Bonfiglio: This is one for the ages. And sort of pulling back, I’m trying to wrap my head around an election that not only deals with a health crisis that has us in our homes for the most part or certainly normalcy not looking like 40,000 people packing college football games anytime soon. Right. I mean, that was sort of what we all were looking forward to. Or if you’re basketball, baseball, that’s not going to happen. So we’re never going to get back to Jon Powers: I would like to point out as a wild Buffalo Bills fan with the best lineup we’ve had in the best part of this millennium. If the NFL season doesn’t happen it’s going to be just heartbreaking. Joe Bonfiglio: Well, if it happens, it’s not going to look good. Jon Powers: I’ve had season tickets for 20 years tickets and I’m not going to be able to go to the games. Joe Bonfiglio: I mean, you’ll have a great seat in front of your TV but that is sort of the new normal of that piece of the social distancing, what have you, mixed with an economy that is not just going to bounce right back. I think people aren’t sure understanding incredible partisanship. So we’re going to try to figure out how to navigate this election cycle with these just huge drivers of how people are viewing politics. We have voted through Wars. We have voted through crisises, but we’ve never actually voted or gone to the polls with all these things stacking upon each other. Joe Bonfiglio: And I don’t ever remember a time when I was studying this as a kid or doing this professionally where you had this sort of deep partisanship that is driving how people view a health crisis and economic crisis, and eventually how people are allowed to go vote to one of your sort of questions. Jon Powers: So looking ahead for people, if you listen to this podcast, you most likely believe in climate change is happening and you want to drive action on this. So what advice do you have for the audience of how they can play a role to make sure this continues to be a top tier issue going forward. And is there ways for them to engage, figure out talking points to convince folks on those Zoom calls, maybe not when they’re knocking on doors or whatever the approach is going to be that 2020 continues to be not just a dramatic election for our economy and for our personal health, but for the health of the planet. Joe Bonfiglio: Well, so we’re going to have to figure out how to campaign in this moment. And we’re sort of jokingly say Zoom calls or telephone calls, or texts, sort of however we’re engaging with people these days. One of the most important things that people can do or need to know is that we’re going to need help in talking to voters, right? Because that doesn’t actually change. That part of campaign politics is constant the sort of delivery method is going to maybe be different, but we’re going to have to talk to people. Because I think that voters understand what’s at stake this election cycle. But they are not going to focus on this election until the very end. So folks listening to this podcast, first things first, there will be opportunities to join the fight. Joe Bonfiglio: One of the easiest ways that we provide is by going to EDFAction.org/join, and you’ll get all the updates of the things that we’ll try to pull off. Which could be using our members to call voters that may not show up at the polls. Help them understand that their state has just gone to a mail in ballot. That’s another piece of this puzzle that’s going to shift over the course of the next couple of months which states open up their absentee- Jon Powers: Yeah the disinformation campaign that’s going to counter that it’s going to be phenomenal. Right. So how do we- Joe Bonfiglio: It’s going to be incredible. Jon Powers: Yeah. Interesting. Joe Bonfiglio: We view ourselves as a group that wants to help people go vote. We’re going to have to figure out how to navigate that. And pull these people in to help push that process. Jon Powers: Right. So I live in New York, right. There’s a likely chance New York’s going to go for Biden but I want to help influence folks in Ohio or in Cleveland or in Virginia, where I used to live. How does someone who doesn’t know or had not been involved in campaign before, but also realizes this is the most important election of our lifetime. How do they get involved? Do they sign up at EDF Action? Any other sort of advice on how they can dip their toe in the water for the first time? Joe Bonfiglio: Yeah. There are so many efforts that are going to spark up and I think you’re going to be tripping over opportunities. And I sort of mean that figuratively. Joe Bonfiglio: Right, right. But the way we’re communicating now is exactly how we’re going to have to … from our homes in either New York or in this case, for me in Northern Virginia, talk to people and urge them to consider what at stake this election and go and vote. There will be a lot of virtual ways to do that. We’ll put that out there, but if you are attached to any organization, be the Sierra Club, League of Conservation Voters, maybe EMILY’s list, Planned Parenthood. A range of environmental and progressive groups out there are going to put together a really great program. Maybe go outside your comfort zone a little bit. If you really hated knocking on doors in this case, it’s to be phone calls. And phone calls to people that are going to need to hear someone’s voice to get out there and vote. We’re going to have to do that. Joe Bonfiglio: And our partner’s going to have to do that. And I think people that have never done this stuff before are going to have to sort of get past that sort of nervousness and get out there and help out. Jon Powers: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I think people need to really take action. And the second one is in these tough economic times to open your wallet, go to EDF Action. And even if it’s $25, help make donations help drive the change. Because it’s going to be critical, critical going ahead. Joe Bonfiglio: I just want to say that so many people continue to do that and they recognize that we have a fight ahead of us. And are continuing to give, it’s incredibly necessary. Joe Bonfiglio: And so very, very much appreciated. Jon Powers: So going back to yourself, North Carolina, you’re about to leave to head up to the city in D.C. And with your stack of resumes. If you could sit down with yourself at that time and grab a coffee or grab a beer and give yourself a piece of advice, what would you say? Joe Bonfiglio: It was a 1994 blue Honda Civic that I had forever. I think I put like 220,000 miles on that car before I donated it to the local NPR station, because it probably shouldn’t have been on the road. I think that person didn’t fully appreciate how I think truly lucky, 18, 20 years later, he would look back at a life that has been really, really good. And I think I should have told myself to appreciate each of those moments that were so fast and fleeting, especially with my time on the Hill. And through some of these election cycles, because I think looking back at it, it’s been a great run. Joe Bonfiglio: I’m not done yet. I know in the moment I just zip right past it and probably tried to find the cheapest beer and wing night after something really fantastic or sort of, again, wonderfully nerdy happened, over the course of a typical Hill day or something. Jon Powers: All that homework you’ve done. All the experience, I think leads to, I mean, we’re in the Super Bowl right now, if there ever has been for our fight. And I think we ask folks to pay attention and support EDF Action and other organizations that are out there, help me advocate for this change. Joe, thank you so much for joining us at Experts Only. Joe Bonfiglio: Jon, thank you. Jon Powers: Yeah, absolutely. And I thank the team at EDF Action for helping to put this together. Thanks to Carly Battin at CleanCapital. Who are also helping to put this together. You can get more episodes at CleanCapital.com. As always I look forward to your insights on folks we should be talking to. Feel free to send those our way. And I look forward continuing the conversation. Thank you. Jon Powers: Thanks for listening in today’s conversation. Find more episodes on CleanCapital.com, iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear be sure to subscribe and leave us a five star review. We look forward to continuing our conversation on energy, innovation, and finance with you.