Jon Powers (00:02):

Welcome back to Experts Only. I’m your host, Jon Powers. I’m the co-founder of Clean Capital and served as president of Obama’s chief sustainability officer. On this podcast, we explore solutions to climate change by talking to industry leaders about the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance. You can get more episodes at cleancapital.com. Welcome back to Experts Only. I’m your host, Jon Powers. We haven’t actually had an episode in quite some time. We took a little bit of a hiatus this last year as I personally spent a lot of time in Washington DC working around the politics of the big beautiful bill and the Trump administration and really had spent a lot of my time in focus there and really wanted to restart experts only and to make sure that we’re having a conversation about where the industry is, what the future of the industry needs to look like, and how we get there.

(00:59):

We’re going to have a whole series of shows rolling out over the course of this year, and we’re starting off with my co-founder and our CEO, Thomas Byrne. Tom and I started Clean Capital. This is our 10th year. It’s been quite a journey and we’re going to talk about that journey and talk about where we are today as a company and where we’re going and some of the big challenges we face along the way and some of the things we’re most proud of. As always, you can get more episodes at cleancapital.com, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Thomas, thanks for joining me at Experts Only.

Thomas Byrne (01:31):

It’s nice to meet you, Jon.

Jon Powers (01:32):

Nice to meet you too. So we are in our 10th year of Clean Capital. It’s pretty incredible, the ride we’ve been on. When you think back to your first thoughts about the idea of this company and when you first built the slide deck of what this could look like, what was your inspiration then?

Thomas Byrne (01:57):

Sure. So in the original iteration, I was most motivated by the idea of doing something entrepreneurial on my own, something that was in a sector, clean energy that I was passionate about. And thirdly, along with the first point about entrepreneurialism would be in accordance with my culture, my ethos, the kind of workplace that I wanted to be a part of. I had been in the workforce for a number of years at that point. And suffice it to say, I thought there were improvements in the workplace and culture that I wanted to instill in a company of my own. That really was the crux of the … Some people say when you got involved, we both got the entrepreneurial bug. And I think that almost is more than that entrepreneurial bug and desire to be an entrepreneur and launch and run your own business is probably the biggest driving force that’s unquenchable at that moment in time.

Jon Powers (03:09):

Yeah, I agree. If I had met you, and I know … So for folks that don’t know, Tom’s brother-in-law and I surfed in a record together, that’s how we met. And if I had met leaving the White House, I don’t think I was confident enough to know I could do this. When I transitioned to Bloom and Silicon Valley and I sort of transitioned to the private sector for truly the first real time, having been in the military and the government since then, I was like, “Oh, wait, I could do this. ” And then when we connected, it was like, “Oh, and this is a great idea to do it on.

Thomas Byrne (03:39):

” Yeah. And I think it speaks to … There’s very few companies that I know of that were launched by a single person. So Google was the two guys and go through your list of prominent companies. They often had more than one person starting it in part because misery loves company, but I think it becomes the crutch. You have to tell each other you could do it because if you were alone on the island and it would be a far more challenging enterprise to wrap your head around. But when you’re with someone else, you’re cheering each other up and saying, “Let’s just get through the next month and let’s get through the next quarter and days are ahead.”

Jon Powers (04:29):

I think there’s also something to say that we weren’t 22-year-olds trying to get this going. We had both had careers. We both had two kids at that point when we got funded and it went on to have three kids. And it was like we were more mature. We weren’t starting out of a trunk. Having you to convince my wife that this is a good idea, and at some point your wife being like, okay, well, you’re working with some smart people, hopefully. It helped build the support and the confidence because really, I mean, the first couple of years, I think people think, okay, we got funded, we received our seeded investment in December 2015. We’ve been working on this for a year and you’ve been working on more before that. You’d left your job before that. It was a lot of slog up to us getting those first dollars in the door.

(05:18):

And then really in the first year, if you look back, we launched, we really got going in January of 16, and we did a whole eight megawatts that first year,

Thomas Byrne (05:27):

Right? Yeah, which was a huge achievement. Huge. It was probably the hardest megawatts to get in the door of all of them so far. I often tell folks that a lot of people are cheering you on when you start a company, but really it’s on you and your grit. And us as co-founders of this company, no one else is going to tie your shoe in the morning. You got to do it yourself. And if you have the grit and the stamina and the stomach for it, maybe you have a chance of success. But boy, did we need a few lucky things to break our way along the way as well?

Jon Powers (06:11):

For sure. And I think what’s interesting is there’s a lot of people will cheer you on, but there’s also a lot of those folks will cheer you on and say no when you ask them for money. So the number of nos that we got in the first through the capital raise, the seed investment, and then for folks that don’t know, we actually crowdfunded our first portfolio. So we’d go around and really, really in a weird way, pass the hat to raise the money, and it took a lot of conversations, a lot of nos. And for me personally, those nos, they beat on you. But I look back now and I think about some of the conversations I’ve had and I’m like, well, yeah, we proved you wrong.

Thomas Byrne (06:49):

Yeah, and we still get tons of nos. I don’t know when this will ultimately air, but we just closed a $300 million corporate debt facility and we probably went out to 50 to a hundred different investors. We ended up closing with one in Franity and many others, we had a bunch of yeses who were interested in doing it with us, but we still had tons of nos. And nos come for … We are a highly credible, capable business right now. So it’s just part of the business. And the sooner you can build the veneer to get past the no and know that ultimately you just need one person to say yes or one investor to say yes, that’ll get you there.

Jon Powers (07:34):

And to go back, just we’ll move forward in a second, but to think about going back to that period of time when we were both coming out of other jobs, and again, we needed healthcare. We needed at least some level of paycheck to get this thing going. I feel like that mentality of organic growth stuck with us for years. We weren’t hiring like crazy. We weren’t trying to scale like crazy. We were doing what we could to grow the company. And now if we’ve put us in a really strong, and I don’t want to use the term safe because I think that’s the wrong way to put it, but an efficient way of operating that we could have hired twice as many people and maybe followed over because our SG&A was too high, for instance. And we’ve just been very, very thoughtful about that growth.

(08:23):

And maybe that came from maturity, I think, and watching others trip in front of us.

Thomas Byrne (08:28):

Well, we started in … I was kicking the tires, as you said, probably in 2014, maybe even earlier. I think the first slide deck was maybe even 2013, and we ultimately launched in 2016, and it’s me, you, our two other co-founders, and Zoe, who’s also our chief operating officer to this day, and we had various skillsets, but we just tried to figure out amongst our various skillsets who can cover each segment of the business. And that became the mantra that continued. You didn’t just say, let’s go hire someone to do something. You take a grittier, a more efficient, more productive view of it and say, who do we have amongst us and how can we cover all of the skillsets? And to any entrepreneur, the more you can do on less, the more productive you could be with less people, the more sustainable you will be as a business.

(09:30):

And I hope we never lose that ethos as we continue to grow. Yeah.

Jon Powers (09:36):

I mean, it’s always a great example. So we went from intern to first employee to we needed to create an asset management arm. So she sort of wrapped her … Now she’s literally our COO and probably one of the most hard-driving, bottom-line focused people because she’s literally been through all of it. She’s seen the projects on fire. She’s started work getting birds off of things at FedEx. She’s done really fascinating stuff, and it wasn’t because we hired a CMO back then. She grew as we grew.

Thomas Byrne (10:09):

And she’s become widely respected in our industry. I hear her people speak glowingly of her. I was just at a conference and her name came up a bunch of times.

Jon Powers (10:21):

When you look back at … Okay, so for us, the Manulife investment was a major milestone for sure, but there were a lot of major milestones leading up to that. Where along that first trend before we got to Manulife, were you feeling like, okay, we’ve got something here, we’re making good progress. I don’t think we ever got comfortable. A matter of fact, I still don’t think we’re comfortable, but I feel like you felt like we’re on the right track.

Thomas Byrne (10:51):

So I think when the Bills drafted Josh Allen- A hundred percent.

(10:57):

That was a step in the right direction. I think I knew that you were going to be emotionally stable for a number of years, and we have a number of other Buffalo colleagues that would hold true as well. So that was the first milestone. Joking aside, you brought up the first eight megawatts, which let’s not poo-poo it. The first eight megawatts that we did at Clean Capital were also financed on the debt side by Jon Hancock, who is now the largest shareholder along with Manulife, which is one and the same. Manulife owns John Hancock. They are our largest shareholder by far today in the company, and they are the capital reason for us to have had such sustained growth since 2020. So that and original debt financing introduced us and partnered us with the right people who had the right experience in this sector and the right long-term vision in this sector that was critical for our company’s growth and sustainability.

(12:06):

And it took five years from that original closing in 2016 for us to ultimately do a broader capital raise. They did an initial … So that’s the first piece of the puzzle. And then we had a bunch of good partners between 2016 and 2021 when we closed the recapitalization with Hancock, Generate Capital, Carbal, BlackRock, we did a ton of deals with all of those guys as well as a bunch of different lenders that we brought into the orbit. During that period of time, I was talking regularly with the folks at Wells Fargo. They’re now one of our corporate lenders. So a lot of the relationships that we built, the track record that we built between 2016 and 2021 culminated in us being able to bring in serious institutional capital, recapitalize the business to the tune of $300 million in 2021, which got upside in 2023 to $800 million, and has really set the sales for who we’ve become today.

Jon Powers (13:11):

Yeah, I think it’s so important to the fact that we’ve had patient partners from … I mean, manually saw is a great example, but when we did our seed investment with the family office, we did our series A, not with an institution whose number day one goal was for us to skyrocket so they could exit. We had a bunch of individuals who came in in our Series A. And up until recently, we’re still around for 10 years, so they were very patient. They loved to see the growth, they love to see the story, but we didn’t have a VC barreling down on our neck saying, “You got to do X, Y, and Z.” And I think that’s- And

Thomas Byrne (13:44):

Nor should

Jon Powers (13:45):

We.

Thomas Byrne (13:47):

Venture capital, we try to, and you, Jon, do it better than any of us, talk about all the really positive impacts of our business from climate, clean energy. But I remind folks, we’re a boring infrastructure investor at the end of the day. Solar batteries, which is our core focus, are boring pieces of energy infrastructure that is powering people’s dishwashers and refrigerators. So it’s unnatural for that asset class to be matched with the venture capital. And while in the very, very early days, we had some venture capitalists knocking on our doors, willing to give us money for a lot of flesh of the company. We were smart or perhaps just lucky, probably more likely just lucky, that we didn’t partner with any of those venture capitalists. Instead, we had family offices in the very early stages, high net worth individuals, which is a completely different type of investor.

(14:50):

So they came in at the corporate level. Most of them have since exited at a good return, but that was eight, nine years later, 10 years later, some of them finally exited our cap table. And then in 2021, we brought in insurance money, boring insurance money that is long-term focused. Both of those investors, the early stage corporate investors, the high net worth individuals, family offices, as well as Hancock Manulife in 2021, because of their long-term vision, they allowed us to make mistakes that ultimately made us a better company. And I don’t think private equity and certainly not venture capital would have as much patience to let us work through those mistakes, but it’s those very mistakes of which we won’t list here, but you and I both know which ones they are, have made us a much, much better company because we know where not to dip our toe in, and instead what we’re good at and what we should lean into much more.

Jon Powers (15:55):

Yeah. When I think about, so where we are today, I want you to put yourself in Scott’s Kushner’s seat. And for folks, Scott’s at Hancock, he’s been our partner now for years, but also literally was one of the first meetings we took at Clean Capital. As Tom mentioned, they were the debt on our first portfolio. He came into the debt product then. What market dynamics changed between then and when they ended up investing in what today, we are an IPP today, but that model almost didn’t exist truly back then. What has changed across the market that allowed them to come in with hundreds of millions of dollars and other partners to allow us to continue to scale and grow?

Thomas Byrne (16:35):

Well, a few things, obvious things changed. There were no batteries getting done. I don’t even recollect. I think the first we even looked at a battery, it was 2018, 2019, maybe 20. It was

Jon Powers (16:46):

Talked as the holy grail, but it was never actually

Thomas Byrne (16:48):

Done. And there was no community solar. I think there was a small pilot program in Minnesota in 2015, 2016. So there was a lot of evolution. There was corporate PPAs. Now you have Meta and Microsoft and Amazon and all of them driven by the data centers signing these large procurement contracts. None of that existed in any meaningful amounts, and yet those three things that I just listed are really key drivers of our industry right now and driving a lot of the electrons that are hitting the grid. So those are just fundamental things that have changed and evolved in our sector. The sector’s also grown a lot, and that’s important because we have typically been an acquirer of assets that we’re obviously developing a lot more on our own at this point. And with that, the growth in the industry, the opportunities we were looking at also grew in size and scale.

(17:48):

And therefore, it took us years to become a highly credible buyer in the market. Now we’re arguably the most credible or one of the most credible buyers in our segment. And we also are therefore deploying, because the market has grown, we’re deploying more capital in those acquisitions. So if we buy a portfolio of assets, we used to buy a five or $10 million portfolio of assets. Now it’s 40 million, 50, $100 million, even more in some cases because we’re buying assets from developers or portfolios from developers who have scaled over time with the scale and the growth of the industry.

Jon Powers (18:27):

Yeah. Think about why we are a reliable buyer at this time. And I think there’s a couple of key things that develop for us. All we did is operating assets for the first really five years as a company. We built a brand around our ability to close, meaning if we’re going to lock something up, we know we can get there and we’re going to have real, honest, hard conversations sometimes with partners, but we want to do multiple deals with the same people. And we look at this as we are here to get this closed. And I think what we’ve seen the last year as the market’s transitioned, there’s a huge value to that. There’s not as much I used to call it stupid money pouring in and people are looking for people that can do what they say they’re going to do and get money out the door and help continue to scale what they’re doing.

(19:13):

It just is that we’re very good at valuing now the market just because we know it so well.

Thomas Byrne (19:18):

And that is the constant refrain that you hear from advisors and sellers and developers in the market. They always say clean capital’s not going to give you the best bid that the market provides, but it’s the most credible or one of the most credible. I don’t want to diminish. We have some good friends who are also very, very good developers, buyers in the market. And when we put a bid out, it’s credible. We stand behind it. If there are deviations from it, we will factually walk folks through why there’s deviations. And typically it’s because there was something inherently mistaken or misunderstood in the seller materials, typically production. When we ultimately review production and we have an engineer review production, we walk folks right through it step by step by step and say, this is why we think the production was inflated by 2% or 1%, and therefore here’s the corresponding adjustment to the price.

(20:21):

We do that regularly. And even though no one likes to get a price cut, we do it with a complete open book. And I think that’s widely respected and folks know that after that, we are as credible as anyone in getting this thing closed and we operate relatively quickly and efficiently.

Jon Powers (20:42):

Lovely. I mean, I remember our early days used to always talk about when we’d have a billion dollars of assets under management. And I in the back of my head was like, well, we’ll see if that ever happens. Now we’re closing on $2 billion of acquisitions and we have over 500 megawatts of operating assets across the country. Someone who sits on the investment committee, how does that experience inform the way you look at a new deal coming in?

Thomas Byrne (21:05):

Well, we have the luxury now of being more selective. We’ve built the scale that we set out to build over the last four or five years, and my expectation is we’re north of 500 megawatts. We’ll probably be somewhere between 700 and 800 megawatts by the end of this year. And then it’ll be not long after that that we start talking about a gigawatt of operating assets that’ll happen in the next two, if not three years.

(21:35):

And selective is important for a reason. We look at assets, we have to look at the overall composition of our portfolio now and identify areas where we think we are either overweight or underweight and we need to offset. So we’re now increasingly looking at the overall portfolio and how we want it to be positioned from a risk perspective on a go- forward basis. We don’t want to have too much merchant exposure, even though it tends to have a little bit more or variable rate exposure, even though it tends to have a higher return, we want it to be offset by some fixed revenue and strong credit stuff. So there’s always a balancing act. And that’s a luxury we didn’t have even two years ago.That’s a luxury that we now have. So we’re increasingly thoughtful and selective in which assets we want to pursue and which ones we want to develop ourselves.

Jon Powers (22:27):

Yeah. I mean, obviously we’ve seen the asset base across the country just really explode in terms of number of projects getting built, et cetera. We’ve also now run this through one, two, this is our third administration, presidential administration, maybe fourth, I think. And we’ve had wild changes from various support to pull out the Paris negotiations, to we’ve got the IRA, to now we have the big, beautiful bill or however you want to define it. As we’ve navigated all of that, what excites you about the next phase of the industry? I asked that thinking about last summer when the bill was signed in July, we walked into the July 4th weekend and honestly it felt like kicked in the gut. And I remember going out to RE Plus in September and reporting back, I thought it was going to be a funeral. It was the opposite.

(23:23):

There was so much energy. People were just like, “Okay, now we know the rules. Let’s go. ” It really motivated me on the strength behind what’s being built, not just for us, but the industry.

Thomas Byrne (23:35):

Yeah. Well, this industry, broadly the clean energy industry, solar, wind, increasingly batteries, if nothing else, they’ve had fortitude and the ability to navigate uncertainty and keep pushing forward and growing and adjusting, the industry has continued to grow year on year. If you look back when I started in this sector in 2008, it’s actually a very consistent story through many administrations, starting with Bush to Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump. It’s actually been a breathtakingly consistent growth pattern in the industry, and that’s a reflection of folks keeping their heads down and adjusting to whatever the policy prescriptions are at any given time. It also reflects the high quality of the asset class.

(24:37):

It’s no surprise that the asset class has grown as the asset, as the costs of the asset have gone down, meaning all of the inputs, predominantly the hard costs like equipment, panels, inverters, transformers, racking. Those have all come down year on year, generally speaking. There’s a couple blips over the last decade, but generally speaking, those costs have come down and the growth of the industry has gone up. It’s also, and it’s an important point at this moment in time, as we have such an increase in demand for power to remind folks that notwithstanding the policy at Washington, the fastest way to get an electron to the grid and the cheapest way to get an electron to the grid is solar coupled with, and even solar coupled with batteries that is still far cheaper and far faster to the grid than certainly nuclear, which is 10 years away.

(25:37):

If you wanted to dream up a natural nat gas cogent plant, that’s going to be five, six, seven years if you’re lucky and if you’re able to get supply. So we all have to be very honest about what the best source of power to the grid right now is. And you’re seeing at the state level, a lot of policymakers from both sides of the aisle realizing that they are starting to see power prices go up. They need to be responsive to that. They know that the best way to be responsive to that is put the cheapest, fastest form of power on the grid. And you’re seeing policymakers, even some recently elected officials doing exactly that, moving very quickly to get solar and batteries on the grid.

Jon Powers (26:15):

Yeah. I mean, 2026 is going to be the year of electricity prices politically, which is fascinating. So to look back at the company for a second, I think the one thing I know that both of us are very proud of and is we’ve built a really interesting diverse culture at our company of folks that many times that our employees stay around. They’re here, they come in sometimes juniors, we work to develop them, but we’ve got some amazing leaders that have been here now for four or five, seven years. What are you most proud of as you step back and look at the team?

Thomas Byrne (26:56):

The first thing, which is really a bottom line thing is the team’s very good. We have very smart people who are willing to work very hard and are very ambitious in their own right. So we’ve managed to attract folks who kind of check the basics of what a highly qualified, high caliber investment professional is or development professional is. But then when you peel away that surface, that’s sort of table stakes to work at clean capital. You have to be really smart, work hard, be compassionate and be a good colleague. But then when you peel away that initial surface of resume box checkers, you see a very diverse team. I don’t know where we are right now, but it’s roughly fifty fifty women, 50% on our executive team are women. That was not a mission we set out to accomplish, but I hired my dear friend Melinda as our original general counsel.

(28:02):

She’s still with the company, I think eight years later. You hired Zoe who interned for you, and we brought two very strong women on the team, and then that naturally ensured that this was going to be a place that was very attractive for women to come worse. Also, diversity across backgrounds, ethnic diversity, there’s just an interesting group of people. They don’t all look or act like you and I, and they don’t come from the same backgrounds. I think we have more of a mosaic of folks than your typical Wall Street investment shop, and I’m very proud of that. I think that more organic tapestry of people makes it a much more interesting place to work.

Jon Powers (28:56):

Yeah. I mean, we’re often getting challenged and learning from their experiences, which is so important to what we’re doing. Yeah. All right. So looking forward for a second, on the podcast, we often talk about 2030, so I want to talk about 2030. 2030, what does clean capital look like in 2030?

Thomas Byrne (29:16):

Yeah, and the simple answer is we continue to grow as is, and that turns us into a very successful business in 2030. We’ll be in the world where we’re raising corporate capital to the tune of billions of dollars as opposed to hundreds of millions, which is what we’ve been doing to date. So I imagine that we will certainly be at that point by 2030 where we’re raising billions of dollars. Our balance sheet has grown into three times the size that it is today. But I just as importantly want to make sure that we’re a leader at the table, that our positi Position in the industry has continued to grow a lot of that because of your leadership. And I want that to actually compound going forward to be driving the decisions, not just of our industry, which is critical, but obviously also driving sound policy at the state, the federal, and even beyond that, the global level.

(30:25):

I think we are missing honest bipartisan conversations. It’s been lost in the last number of years to actually formulate energy policy that is going to be good for your kids and my kids. It’s been neglected for the last number of decades. It’s been too ad hoc and there needs to be much more comprehensive state, federal, and global policy on energy and transmission, I might add, which is going to be critical part of that conversation. And it needs to be done in a much more bipartisan way.

Jon Powers (31:02):

Yeah. I mean, you think about our growth, buying operating assets, we were living within the front of the framework those assets were being built. We started to develop a couple years ago, and now we’re in a position really for the first time to start to shape the future. We’re the second largest asset owner of the DG space these days. We have a strong policy team. We’re engaged at the federal level, but if electricity prices keep going at the rate they’re going, and there’s going to be a national and more importantly, a state capital level conversation about how we fix this. And being in the room for that conversation and shaping that to make sure we’re getting better and better projects built, more efficient projects built is just so critical. And I think we have a chance to not only do that, deploy capital and support of it and continue to expand

Thomas Byrne (31:45):

What we’re doing. Yeah. And I don’t want to lose sight of that. And back to our boring business is none of it can happen if we don’t deploy capital in a very thoughtful way into really high quality assets. And again, learn from prior mistakes such that we can deploy into areas that are really attractive and make our company that much more valuable. Yeah.

Jon Powers (32:15):

If you could go back to the corner bakery in Washington, DC outside of Union Station, I remember sitting down with you there. And to me, that for me was an incremental or a critical moment of, this is what we’re doing, this is what the company’s going to look like, let’s go after lots of conversations. And you can sit down and have a beer with yourself or actually both of us then and be like, all right, we’re 10 years in, this is what I’ve learned and this is what you should be thinking about. What advice would you give yourself?

Thomas Byrne (32:46):

So the advice that I give when we hire folks at Clean Capital, I speak with them before they join the company. I’ve done it with every single employee that’s currently working at Clean Capital. And I often tell them, whether you’re with Clean Capital for two years or five years, let’s make it a wonderfully beneficial relationship where you add a lot of value to Clean Capital and we add a lot of value to your own personal career and maybe you’ll dream of starting your own company. And not many folks have actually taken me up on that challenge to start their own company. Not many people are

Jon Powers (33:24):

As …

Thomas Byrne (33:26):

Yeah. And I hope they do. I honestly do. There’s some great people at this company who would be amazing entrepreneurs and CEOs of their own startups and their own companies. And I bring that up because I do think I would say to myself then do it and be patient

(33:50):

And have more patience than you realize. And I think you only live once, so you need to … So taking risk in the grand scheme of one’s life is actually a relatively small risk. And I think more folks should be more willing to do it because if it’s successful, you’ll have something that you’re certainly super proud of. But over the 10 years, yeah, you got to be patient. You’ve got to just be so gritty, be ready to have moments of just the most intense stress and know that those moments of intense stress will be counterbalanced by moments of immense pride and immense joy and satisfaction.

Jon Powers (34:35):

Yeah. It’s hard to remember sometimes to celebrate the wins because you’re so beat down sometimes when they happen.

Thomas Byrne (34:39):

Yeah, we’ve changed the measuring stick for wins. We used to celebrate $1 million closing and now we haven’t celebrated anything with 50 million.

Jon Powers (34:51):

Exactly. Exactly. Well, listen, obviously this has been an incredible adventure and I know it’s far from over, but now that we’re 10 years in, I hope folks, hopefully people see our company across the market. I think this is true as a place where people want to be and partner with and explore. A lot of that has to do with your leadership and I think the company we’ve built. So thank you for continuing to be a steady hand here and I’m excited about what’s next.

Thomas Byrne (35:18):

Yeah, I’m eager to do it with you, man.

Jon Powers (35:20):

Me too. Me too. Thank you to Colin Young for helping to produce this as always. And as I said in the introduction, this is the first in a series of episodes we’re getting restarted after having a little bit of a hiatus last year, as we spent a lot of time in Washington, DC, but you can get experts only at cleancapital.com. And we look forward to this conversation and having this conversation again in 10 years. Thanks. Thanks, Tom.

Thomas Byrne (35:47):

Thank you.

Jon Powers (35:48):

Go, Bills.