Jon Powers (00:02.894)
Welcome back to Experts Only. I’m your host John Powers. I’m the co-founder of Clean Capital and serve as President Obama’s Chief Sustainability Officer. On this podcast, we explore solutions to climate change by talking to industry leaders about the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance. You can get more episodes at cleancapital.com.

Jon Powers (00:30.338)
Laura, thanks so much for joining us at Experts Only.

Laura Lightbody (00:33.218)
Thanks for having, John. It’s good to see you.

Jon Powers (00:37.026)
Good to see you too. I w really want to spend some time talking about the amazing report you guys put out. But before doing that, I wanna talk about you and your background and how you got into climate and and energy. You you grew up in Michigan. What you went to the University of Michigan, right?

Laura Lightbody (00:53.304)
I did a blue.

Jon Powers (00:55.818)
All right. Congrats on your championship.

Laura Lightbody (00:59.02)
Yeah, it was a it was a w it was a big year in my house for March Manis in our brackets.

Jon Powers (01:06.026)
I bet. I bet. what what what did you study at school?

Laura Lightbody (01:13.336)
I studied history and Spanish, so I I definitely didn’t have a typical path, as many don’t, a typical kind of like education. Yeah, career career trajectory. but you know, in it’s interesting growing up in Detroit, you kind of are part of a auto culture whether you’re affiliated with it or not, right? My family didn’t work for in the auto industry.

Jon Powers (01:23.096)
I study elementary.

Laura Lightbody (01:42.808)
But it is just like ingrained into society and culture there. And that really like carried me th into where I cut my teeth working in environment and energy issues, which was my first campaign working on fuel efficiency, where we got the first updates to national federal fuel fuel efficiency in two thousand seven.

but I didn’t follow a linear path. I moved to Washington DC, like many people do, to f study law, get a law degree and you know, change the world. Yeah. I did a couple stints in public and private, working in law, and I ultimately decided not to go to law school, but I did really learn through that process and really through a kind of liberal arts degree, just

questioning the way things are and being critical of the status quo and being able to really kind of like press levers and understand that things don’t have to be the way they are and maybe there’s a different way of doing things. So I’ve really carried that through me throughout my career. And now I’ve been at the Patriotible Trust for the last 10 years working ab across both the kind of adaptation

And mitigation sectors focused on the United States.

Jon Powers (03:12.226)
Yeah, I mean, you’ve been involved in the climate fight for, you know, almost twenty years now, which is crazy. that’s where you and I sort of first met. for folks that aren’t clear, like what is the role of Pew? I mean, people people would know of Pew because of the brand, but like in a space like this, what is the role of Pew and sort of what is the work you guys do? And f you know, I’m gonna get into the work you’re doing today around energy modernization.

Laura Lightbody (03:35.488)
Yeah, Pew is a global nonprofit organization. we work a lot in the United States, but we have global arms and legs working across a myriad of issues. So our mission is really to improve public policy for the better of society. So that brings us to a lot of spaces where intervention is needed. we work on housing issues and rural broadband issues and

plastics and global protection of our ocean. So we work on a myriad of issues where we identify that there are interventions needed to improve that kind of sector or system and where we see a bipartisan pathway. We are a nonpartisan organization and so it’s really important that we identify bipartisan pathways on issues. And

Coming into the energy space, Pew has been involved in the energy space one way or the other for many, many years. But in the past decade or so, we really spent a lot of time in the adaptation space looking at disasters and how the United States can better prepare and invest for disa in disasters. So flooding and fires as they’re getting worse. Right. And at the same time, we realized we really needed to

have a more concerted effort focused on the clean energy space and a decarbonized decarbonization space. So we launched what’s called the Energy Moderniz Modernization Initiative in 2023. And in many ways, I was reflecting on our relationship when Pew had a clean energy program about almost two decades ago. And we were really focused on sort of the shared story around

national security and clean energy and elevating the role of that. And in many ways that narrative is back. Right. we’re talking about a different solution set, but it where we are in sort of this global space right now is just a good reminder that domestic close to the source energy is

Jon Powers (05:32.792)
Hundred percent back.

Laura Lightbody (05:50.026)
what we need. And that really brings us to the conversation today when we’re talking about distributed energy.

Jon Powers (05:56.514)
Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, we think about the work we did, you know, there was a a f a famous senator who was involved with Pew that really got me into the space, this guy John Warner, who had been a Secretary of Navy, was really active in in Pew and helping to educate folks on national security and climate change. He he would have lived for a moment like this where there’s a conversation happening at a national level around affordability of electricity.

in parallel to you know an unfortunate war in Iran that is driving energy prices as a whole globally through the roof because the strainer from O’s. And the messengers around security are back, which I think is important. But also the issues are incredibly tangible today to everyday Americans, whether it be at the pump or the utility bill. And so part of what I’m really trying to explore right now is

this sort of modern moment that we’re in where we as an industry, for instance, or a climate movement, you name it, could not have engineered the political momentum around our issues that we’re seeing today at the polls from elections perspective. And then for me, what’s important about that is not so much the elections themselves, but are we prepared to provide solutions next year at the state or federal level, but really a lot at the state level.

to move forward. And what I love got what I excited about the paper that you guys put out, which I want to talk about, is it does provide that playbook, you know, for folks to look at and figure out how to implement. What was the impetus behind the playbook?

Laura Lightbody (07:37.762)
You know, I think you hit on it a lot, John, things that we do know that we’re seeing today, right? We are in a completely different just energy, electricity demand space than we were five, ten years ago, where electricity growth was relatively stagnant. And now we’re seeing projections all over the place, right? But easily upwards of twenty-five percent growth in that demand driven by manufacturing, electrification.

Of course, AI and data centers are kind of adding to the fervor around things, but that that that demand is is really shifting the field, both from a grid perspective, but also from a solution set perspective. at the same time

Paired with this electricity demand, we see one in seven households, 10% of their income is going to electricity costs, right? And so we are faced with 10% this exponential demand growth and an affordability problem. And to your point, it is an opportunity for us to change the way that we have done things historically in the energy space.

And so our program at Pew, the Energy Modernization Initiative, is looking at really three stools of that solution set so that we can really decarbonize our grid and bring more clean energy on faster for reliability reasons, for affordability reasons, and for carbon carbon emissions reasons.

Today we’re going to talk about the distributed side, but the there are, you know, this the distribution side is a core complement to other pieces that we really need. And when you look at a net zero by 2050 goal, you know, there’s different pathways, right? Distributed is a core tenant of that as a complement to transmission build out, which is part of our kind of problem that we’re in.

Laura Lightbody (09:44.938)
because it is is timely and costly to build and we’re a little bit stuck there. and large scale utility clean energy solutions. So solar and wind, but also with an eye towards some of these clean firm technologies like geothermal and nuclear will increasingly play a role in filling that, you know, last 10% of electricity that we need to get to a net zero path.

Jon Powers (10:11.352)
Yeah, as we were first of all, how do you guys sort of define, just for folks, distributed energy in it around the report?

Laura Lightbody (10:18.444)
Yeah, I mean, when we think about distributed energy, we are first looking at clean solutions. but really we’re looking at, you know, small modular energy generation or storage. So that can be both on behind the meter or in front of the meter, right? So we think of rooftop solar, batteries and storage, smart thermostats, but you know, an aggregation.

A microgrid. we’re seeing a lot of microgrid use at universities and churches and communities, and in and larger aggregation, VPPs and what is virtual power plants, what has become known as VPPs.

Jon Powers (11:02.936)
Right.

Jon Powers (11:07.374)
Got it, got it. It’s just good if I think folks, I mean, just the term utility has changed so much in the last ten years. When we started Clean Capital, utility was 10 megawatts. and now clearly that’s you know very much in what we we’ve we referred to it as the middle market, right? Not large scale utility, not rese, but sort of that middle market. I love the way you guys are breaking into those three programs because they’re all so important to the to solving this. So when you got into the the report itself, like what sort of support

surprise your team around sort of the role of distributed energy in in building a resilient grid.

Laura Lightbody (11:41.966)
So I think we’re the reason we started this is because we recognize that the the kind of big role that if I can for the rest of this just call it DER, it’s a little bit easier, distributed energy resources. So you the role that DER could play in this kind of larger net zero package. But we realized that, you know, the industry sort of needed like a a big kind of jump start behind it.

and so we looked at some other examples. We looked at Australia, that now rooftop solar in Australia makes up almost or more than 13% of total generation across the country. And that’s because a confluence of things happened, but one of those was a deliberate concerted effort by the Australian energy planners to look forward.

And paint a picture for the energy planners and the grid planners there of how DER could make up a larger percentage of the generation. Rather than looking back last year or the year before and saying, okay, you know, demand grew by 2%. How are we gonna meet that next year? This was a real deliberate approach to integrate DRs into planning across the country.

and so instead of treating rooftop solar as or batteries as sort of like a side factor, right? Right. We basically told the grid operators to treat them as part of their core future planning. And we’ve really seen that pay off. So they’re the Australia’s really having a moment. and then we looked at the policy landscape. So we looked back five years.

to see what’s what’s happened in the United States. no surprise, there has been a lot of activity across states. Over 400 policies were passed. when you’re looking at across every single state. And there’s a concentration of the type of policies, though. And so we gathered a suite of experts.

Laura Lightbody (14:00.628)
Most prominently Audrey Zimmelman, who ran the Australia energy market and brings a lot of credibility to the distributed space. She also ran New York’s energy market as well. And we partnered her with Pat Wood, who was chair of FERC under President Bush. And he was also involved in the PUC in Texas and said, help us.

Learn from what has happened in Australia and other places. Learn from what we know has happened so far in the United States, but look forward and really like chart a path that scales distributed energy across US communities so that it is digitized, decentralized, and decarbonized. And that is where we landed with this playbook. We brought in a whole ton of experts, industry, utilities.

Community developers, you name it, they were consulted in this because we really wanted this to be ambitious but also implementable. and we broke it down into three core recommendations that can be translated by state legislators, governors, regulators. it’s a little bit of a menu based on your mix because we know every state

And every RTO and every energy market is a little bit different. So there is not one, you know, moonshot solution here. But the core kind of tenets of these recommendations are to do exactly what I just said Australia did. Integrate DER into utility planning and procurement. The second one is to reduce the administrative and technical barriers to grid access. So think things like

soft costs and and and the the scale and costs related to permitting, local and state permitting. And that third one is really to strengthen community resilience through distributed energy. So that really gets to leveraging microgrids, utilizing virtual power plants as a kind of resilience benefit. and we’re seeing that kind of all over the country.

Laura Lightbody (16:22.364)
as a implementable tool.

Jon Powers (16:27.17)
So if if I’m a policymaker or more importantly an advocacy or industry group, I can sort of take these recommendations to a state capital and say this is how we should be thinking about implementing this. So the

Laura Lightbody (16:38.646)
It’s a little bit of we even broke it down. We got we got cute with it. It even said, okay, this is for legislators, this is for state regulators, these are for executive offices. so that you really could kind of like tailor it to your needs because it is nearly impossible, as you know, to kind of say, like, here’s something that all 50 states can do. That’s just impossible. Right. and we have a suite of kind of case studies. There’s 21 case studies in there that highlight

What Virginia is doing on VPPs and what Texas is doing on to ease permitting and reduce the c ro reduce those soft costs.

Jon Powers (17:17.909)
Interesting. So post public public publishing this, obviously other than doing fantastic podcasts, like what is Pew gonna have if if if someone’s bringing these or has questions around these, is there a place for them to reach into Pew to engage and sort of to help take this to the next level?

Laura Lightbody (17:36.3)
Yeah, so we have this advisory council. Audrey Zibleman and Pat Woods sit at the head of it. They are supported by additional advisory members who represent former utilities, DR industry, and they are sort of like a a a body that is out on the street talking about this. They’re going to conferences, they’re going to talk to state legislators.

this is a tool that we have made available to other organizations, NGOs, advocates, think tanks who also want to be able to like pick something up, figure out what can they could do in, you know, the New Mexico governor is really about it excited about DER. So can we take some of this to New Mexico and implement it? Right. and there’s a, you know, there’s a community of advocates out there that can take this resource and go implement it. It’s certainly

Pew is kind of like one player in a much larger, pretty mature field of advocates. And we need everyone out there because the reality is, we need every tool we can get to scale these resources.

Jon Powers (18:53.144)
Totally agree. And I feel like the ecosystem around who’s advocating, who’s thinking, you know, and is a it’s it’s shrinking in a positive way. We’re getting some more powerful forces, hopefully adding to the voices early next year. And I I’ve been arguing within the industry group world that we need this type of center of excellence concept of policies that are working to be able to take off the shelf and implement. You know, I think we’re we’re working on things like community solar, you know, in in a handful of states that’s that’s working.

You know, how can we take some of those shared examples and take them to other states to implement, right? Or if there’s VPPs or, you know, it’s it someone who works in twenty-six states as an asset owner, we work in f literally twenty-six policy thief, right? And it matters for significantly on the finance side because the risks of all of those policies changing or understanding them is challenging. So anytime that happens, you’re just sort of driving up the cost of capital into projects.

And then in the long run you’re costing more for the electrons on the other other side.

Laura Lightbody (19:56.206)
Yeah, and the you know the Okay it just gets to that. The core tenant of this is integrating DER into planning, utility planning. because that is the that is the foundation for what happens in a state. and for which you everyone else capital can work against

Jon Powers (19:57.323)
Recognize

Laura Lightbody (20:20.256)
industry can work against, utilities can work against, right? But without that and without that kind of like vision setting, you’re working on a year by year basis and things are changing. And understandably policymakers are very eager for solutions, right? This is this goes back to the opportunity that we’re in. We’re we are in a moment and it’s the clean energy’s moment to lose should we choose to do that, which I don’t think we will. but

You know, we policymakers are eager because they have to be responsive around affordability and they have to be constitu responsive to their constituents about reliability. Those lights have to stay on, right? Right. So that’s good and we need to be handing them solutions that really put clean energy forward.

Jon Powers (21:12.886)
A hundred percent. And I feel like that’s a huge missing component for the industry these days as we are we’re seeing this happen in Rhode Island, obviously New Jersey, Governor Sherrill, Virginia, Maine. These policy fights are actively happening today and are only about to ramp up. And in many cases, we’re we’re going in on the defensive versus on the offensive with solutions. And this is the type of stuff that hopefully will help shepherd it. you know, as we start to think through

where like C is, you know, got a new CEO and it’s gonna be ramping up, I think, some efforts around the state level, you know, would love to find ways to help bridge the community. So we’re sort of all pushing the same forward agenda into these policymakers, in into the policymakers next year. If someone’s looking to learn more about the playbook or how to engage, like where should they go?

Laura Lightbody (22:00.174)
pewtrust.org slash energy modernization. We’ve got this reach research is on there around the DR playbook. we have a a large portfolio of our work is actually working in across bipartisan states. So we’re working in red, purple, and blue states on clean grid and really having a lot of success working with Republicans and Democrats on

near term solutions that kind of like squeeze more out of the existing transmission system so that we can bring all that utility scale clean energy that’s kind of sitting on the sidelines, bring it onto the transmission system as quickly as possible. And so, you know, states like Utah and Indiana, states that we shouldn’t forget about, they may not be

passing big bold climate packages, but they s the the you know, when you get down to state the state legislative level, they still need energy solutions. And if we can give them clean energy solutions, there’s a lot of receptivity there.

Jon Powers (23:07.842)
Yeah, I mean this is an interesting angle on this is like s someone who both of us grew up sort of in the climate battle, right? And I think we’re in a moment where some of the language takes the back seat to implementation of some of the solutions. Right. And being a a place like Utah is a good example, but there are bipart the the affordability is a bipartisan challenge. And being able to come forward as an industry with a bipartisan solution and building a durable coalition is I think probably better for us in the long run anyways. So that it isn’t a

doesn’t turn into a partisan battle. But it’s like, look, for instance, solar is, you know, fastest, cheapest way to bring power. You can talk about bringing your natural gas plane on, but good luck buying a turbine in five years to get this in what’s gonna happen over the next five years when your demand is going this and everyone’s, you know, wanting in a new data center and complaining about affordability. Like this this this this moment of solutions is is critical. So looking ahead, I love the way you guys looked at twenty thirty in the report because that

We talk a lot about on this podcast around twenty thirty. And, you know, looking at, you know, we’re already in twenty twenty six. Pretty soon we’re gonna be talking twenty twenty seven. You know, in that three year window, like what makes w what has to happen to make the changes that, you know, I think are outlined in this report of success.

Laura Lightbody (24:28.204)
I think one thing I’m hopeful about is just states acting. We’ve seen so much state action in the past couple of years and continuing that momentum around DR implementation, but also just broader clean energy implementation is gonna be huge. we are actually undertaking some research with a partner Braddle, the Bradle group to under better understand and articulate the

emissions and economic impacts of basically this playbook. Like if you play, if you model this playbook out, if you model these recommendations out, what is the real ROI, right? Where what are we going to get on emissions? What is the economic return? And a little bit to the extent that we can, we’re going to look at some community benefits as well. But to me, that will be a really powerful tool too to help us like vision set and articulate the ROI.

Yeah.

Jon Powers (25:30.22)
Sorry, have you looked at all about how it can drive capital for these states? And if not, it’s something we would love to help you guys think about because one of the most powerful messengers we’ve had in places that we’ve had policy battles and we’ve been on the front end of net metering battles, you know, rec battles, et cetera, was talking about look, these are projects being, you know, you’re bringing outside capital into your street creating jobs if the policy landscape’s right.

Right. In in this current moment, that often will have a different effect with a different policymaker than a conversation around carbon, for instance, right? Or greenhouse gases. And, you know, often that is a a forgotten about piece of it. but you know, you know, we’re bringing, you know, life insurance money into states across the country to invest in assets long term. And when we have that conversation, it’s eye opening to policymakers.

Laura Lightbody (26:24.896)
Yeah. Yeah. I would love to look more at that. I think that’s another really compelling reason to act. And, you know, most of the time we’re talking about this to policymakers and regulators, it is about keeping the lights on. It’s about diversity. It’s about having a suite of options and it’s just about meeting demand. Right. And that is kind of like what the driver is.

obviously costs is sort of like the whole undergird here of the whole system. But what’s compelling, you know, reliability is a huge, huge, particularly in the Southeast is just like a really big motivator because they’ve lived through through true moments of either grid blackouts or they’re just most impacted by, you know, windstorms and hurricanes. And so for them it’s just like it’s such a powerful tool.

For reliability.

Jon Powers (27:22.988)
Yeah, totally. I mean you see Texas is a great example of a place that politically we don’t talk about solar in some places there, but it’s booming because people want it and they need it for a solution.

Laura Lightbody (27:35.074)
Yeah.

Jon Powers (27:36.086)
So I always end up s sort of the last quote, but putting the the report aside and pew aside, I wanna go back to Michigan and you’re graduating from the University of Michigan and you could sit down and have a beer with yourself and give you one piece of advice. What would you say?

Laura Lightbody (27:53.214)
say let the path take you where it’s gonna take you. which is probably the career advice which is the career advice I give to people now who come talking about should I go to grad school or should I take this class my senior year? Or, you know, like there’s so much emphasis on the the internship you’re gonna take and write it it all the pieces all build and add on to each other and it’s okay if

It’s not this like perfect linear line because it’s never going to be. And I think that makes you helps make you sort of like a more dynamic person over time.

Jon Powers (28:32.312)
Love it. I feel the same way. My journey has been and nothing but lots of turns that we have to follow the open door. So amazing, Laura. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for the team at Pew for helping to put not just the report together, but putting the podcast together.

Laura Lightbody (28:48.546)
Yeah, thank you for having me and we can chat anytime.

Jon Powers (28:52.276)
Absolutely. And you know, as always, you can get more episodes at cleancapital.com and thanks to our producer Colleen Young for helping to put this together. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. I look forward to the next one. Thanks.