now: Jon Powers: Welcome to Experts Only podcast, sponsored by Clean Capital. Learn more at cleancapital.com. I’m your host Jon Powers. Each week, we explore the intersection of energy, innovation, and finance with leaders across the industry. Thank you so much for joining us. Jon Powers: Welcome back to Experts Only podcast. I’m your host Jon Powers. And today we have a really interesting conversation with the executive director of Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions, Heather Reams. CRES is a right of center nonprofit based in DC, and it focuses on engaging conservatives and Republicans on issues of climate and clean energy. Jon Powers: They are hosting their fourth National Clean Energy Week. You can learn more at nationalcleanenergyweek.org. This annual conversation is focused on highlighting the progress of clean energy and helping to communicate the need for action. So, for those of us in the industry, it’s really important to be part of this conversation. And again, I challenge you go to nationalcleanenergyweek.org. Jon Powers: We learn from Heather not only about the progress that’s being made in Washington, but also ways to help communicate to a conservative audience and how to get some Republicans to take action on issues that we care about. So, thanks to CRES for helping to put this together, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Jon Powers: Heather, thanks so much for joining us at Experts Only. Heather Reams: Hey, great to be with you. Jon Powers: Really excited to talk about the work you all are doing to help educate and engage conservatives and Republicans on clean energy. But before doing that, I want to step back and talk a little bit about you. Before we joined, you told me you grew up in Virginia Beach. What sort of got you interested in politics and advocacy? Heather Reams: Well, Virginia Beach is 200 miles south of Washington, DC, so I would come up to DC as a kid and was really captivated by these majestic buildings and what went on in them. Heather Reams: Virginia is also rich in history. We’ve got Williamsburg, Jamestown nearby. I really liked the history as well. So, as you get older and you’re, what are you going to be when you grow up, kind of junior year, senior year of high school, I really took a liking to what does this look like with something in Washington? A government class in my senior year kind of sealed the deal. Jon Powers: Wow. Heather Reams: And with that, I participated with some fundraising opportunities with those who were running for office and just thought it was exciting. And it had so many facets, whether it’s the communication side, the political side, the policy side. It mattered. That was the other thing, it mattered. Jon Powers: Yeah, of course. Heather Reams: Affecting change in some way. I feel like it was purpose-driven. So, I dove in. Jon Powers: And then you end up going to school at University of Washington and focusing on political science. And then did you intern in the Hill? What drove you to the Hill and sort of getting deeper on the policy side? Heather Reams: I interned for a senator from Washington state, Senator Slade Gordon, who actually just passed away and- Jon Powers: Had the honor of meeting him, amazing guy. Heather Reams: Terrific guy and a Republican from Washington state, too, so he really had a pragmatic approach that I really didn’t appreciate at the time, being just trying to get myself through school. And I put myself through school, so taking an internship meant I also wasn’t getting paid. Heather Reams: So, I had to pull out some extra loans to make sure I could participate. But thank goodness I did because that really sealed the deal that I did want to go to Washington. I wasn’t going to stay in Seattle and go to grad school, which was an option. Heather Reams: I also was offered a job in Senator Gordon’s office full time and decided no, I want to go to Washington and be where the action is. It was an easy enough move since I was from Virginia. So, I just started blanketing the Hill with resumes like every other kid who wants to get a job on the Hill. Jon Powers: Right. Outstanding. You ended up working for the senator from New Hampshire, Bob Smith at the time. Heather Reams: Bob Smith in New Hampshire. I was in Washington state. I’m a conservative. And being at the University of Washington, I was one of a handful of conservatives, especially in my poli sci classes where you could imagine it got heated discussions and a lot of difference of opinions. Heather Reams: So, I wanted to go to a super conservative member. That was what I wanted. I wanted a really conservative member, so I found a ranking I think in National Review or Weekly Standard, somebody, and started going down the list and prioritizing members by who was the most conservative and applying. Jon Powers: Wow. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Did you focus originally on communications? Was there a policy area you focused on when you started? Where did you sort of cut your teeth? Heather Reams: I wanted to be a lobbyist eventually in some way. So, when you start on the Hill, especially in a senator’s office, they relegate you to the mail room. Jon Powers: Right, right. Heather Reams: So, was in the mail room, but in that, of course you feel like you should be making policy at the age of 22, you also recognize that in the mail room, you’re reading about everything. Jon Powers: Of course. Heather Reams: And you start to learn about the things that you care about or you have more of an interest in and things you don’t. You start to listen in on floor speeches or committee hearings that you like a little more. You start hanging out with different staff people who have this expertise. So, I liked a lot of things. It was a smorgasbord of policy really. Jon Powers: I bet, yeah. Heather Reams: I thought I would just maybe get in on the lobbying side at some point and let it flow. I eventually left the Hill to start lobbying because I thought these guys came in and slick suits and nice dresses. Jon Powers: Right, of course. Yeah. Been in a lot of those meetings. Heather Reams: And fancy shoes and handbags. I thought, well, wow, that’s nice. Why don’t I do that? Jon Powers: Right. When I first got interested in clean energy, I came to it in climate from a national security perspective. And John Warner had just retired from Virginia, so I had a chance to testify to the Senate. I testified with Warner, and he sort of adopted me. He and I did a bunch of work together for a few years. Jon Powers: It was just really interesting to see someone with his background come into these climate conversations. Your traditional sort of environmental community wasn’t exactly sure how to handle it. I mean, he was the former chairman of the Armed Services Committee. He was such a beautiful messenger on these topics and helped drive such significant change because of the way he sort of brought his message forward. Heather Reams: Well, you and I shared that in common with the Senator because when I mentioned my high school engagement with some politics in Virginia and being from there, he was there. Jon Powers: No, okay. Heather Reams: He was there, and it was just amazing, my first time I had met sitting Senator. At 17, 16, 17 years old, I was in awe. Jon Powers: Yeah, yeah. I was in my 30s and I was in awe. I had come to the Pentagon to an army energy conference after I’d taken the job in the Pentagon. And I don’t think I realized how respected he was by the military until I got a chance to walk him around and all of these four star generals were coming out to pay their dues to him. It was just a really amazing sight to see. Jon Powers: So, where in this path did you get interested in clean energy issues? Heather Reams: Later in my career, I’ll say. And I have worked on a number of issues being a public policy or public affairs professional. But what struck me, I mean, one of the things I’ve done in my career is finding ways for Republicans and Democrats to come together. I myself am a conservative, but for instance, I’ve done a lot of work on education reform where there is, how can we get things done together? Heather Reams: This issue seems to be one of those issues, climate, clean energy, where there are opportunities. Similarly, with education, the dialogue has been very much… I wouldn’t say controlled, but a lot of voices coming from the left, through teacher unions and others. So, what is the voice of the right, and how can they come into play? What does more compromise look like, and how can all votes rise? Heather Reams: That’s a lot of my background, but I’ll tell you when I really got interested is becoming a mom. I’ve got children who are now 11, 11 going on 21, it feels like, but 11 and almost six. Jon Powers: Wow. Heather Reams: There’s just something about passing on to the next generation and a responsibility that makes this work now more personal. And also it was professional work. Jon Powers: Yeah, of course. Heather Reams: But it makes it more personal about what you’re doing. It’s also seeing how being a conservative woman and mother, being just a voice out there that’s a woman, women care about these issues. Jon Powers: Yeah, of course. Heather Reams: Major voting block. And how can conservative women be bringing their voice forward? I mean, I’m working with all conservatives, but I think the women do have a important part to play. We care about the health of our children. We’re raising our children for the most part, not singularly, but we’re got an eye on that, a lot of us, even if we do work full time. Jon Powers: Yeah, right, especially today, when many of our kids are at home having to do school as well. Heather Reams: Yes, exactly. Anyways, that’s really where in the last few years has really it’s blossomed into something that’s both professionally and personally rewarding. Jon Powers: Yeah. Interesting. And so, I want to talk a little bit about the organization you lead, Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions, because you said about being sort of the voice of the right on these issues. I think what you guys have done so well, and I’ll let you talk more about it here in a second, is take these issues that so many Americans care about and find ways to communicate and educate and advocate for folks that maybe aren’t traditionally as comfortable on these issues or understand them is a way that you can bring a unique voice. Jon Powers: What drove your interest in the organization? Can you talk for the audience who aren’t as familiar with CRES sort of the mission and what you all do? Heather Reams: Yeah. CRES is a nonprofit organization in Washington, DC. I’m the executive director of it. We engage Republican policy makers about conservative solutions to address our nation’s need for abundant, reliable, and affordable energy. But also we want to preserve the environment through this process, and we want to maintain America’s competitive edge. Heather Reams: So, from a conservative standpoint, we would see some policies that have been proposed by the left center to be too heavy-handed on mandates and can have a detrimental impact on jobs or the economy. So, we’re looking to create more of a balance to the economic energy and environmental needs of our nation. Heather Reams: I mean, everyone will say that, right? We want to do that. Jon Powers: Of course. Heather Reams: But I think with Republicans, it’s more woven in to our policies. We don’t say this is just our environmental policies. Conservation is a part about what Republicans have done and have been for generations. Heather Reams: Many always point back to Teddy Roosevelt, but the EPA was created under Nixon. Lest forget. So, getting the politics out of it and looking at just the policies, where do Republicans, how do they want to engage? And they do. I think the messenger and the message has been off for a period of time now. We’ve gotten off track. And who suffers? Well, our planet, and we all will. So, getting us back to navigating to a common sense place where all votes rise is what we want to do. Jon Powers: Yeah. And what you guys focus on, is a lot of education and advocacy for specific topics to these policy makers? And how do you sort of go about doing that? Heather Reams: Yeah. A lot has changed in the last, the last four or five years. First of all, if you said the term climate change to a Republican member, they went running down the hall with hair on fire. You can’t do that. That’s changing in the last couple of years. Heather Reams: What really was starting about the economic message about the value of clean energy, the number of jobs it brings into a state or district. That’s not just the energy generation, but it’s also the other kinds of jobs that are there, the manufacturing, the shipping. There’s just a lot that’s there. Heather Reams: So, when you can go and talk to a member of Congress from an oil and gas state, let’s say from Louisiana, and then talk about the importance of the ports in Louisiana and New Orleans and others, and what comes through there in terms of supplies and parts, and how important the shipping is for that, it becomes a different conversation. You’re not having a conversation about which kind of energy is better. You’re having a conversation that’s about economic development. Jon Powers: Of course. Yeah. Heather Reams: It changes the dynamic of the engagement, and that framing matters. That’s why I think we and others like CRES have been able to move the needle with Republicans. You see much more support from Republicans than you ever had because we’re getting out of the which energy is better conversation. Jon Powers: Interesting. And so, in those conversations, and you talked a little bit about the economic impact, what do you find is the most… If I’m going to turn to an audience member, say, maybe a solar developer in Georgia or South Carolina, what are the messages they should be taking in to their conservative or Republican lawmakers to help them build the support to get good sort of clean energy policies out there? Heather Reams: Certainly number one point to the jobs, on the job creation and the potential for jobs, especially if a piece of legislation is holding it back or a tax credit that needs to be renewed, for instance, what it would mean in terms of jobs and economic impact. That’s number one. I mean, that’s like number one and two. Put it that way. Jon Powers: Right. Heather Reams: Also, that if a lot of members tell us they’re all the above, which means all kinds of energy, well, solar is in all the above, right? Jon Powers: Yep. Heather Reams: Right, we’re part of that. So, in competition and having different energy sources and choices for consumers is good. And the likelihood of the competition lowering the price for consumers is good. So, all the above and the consumer cost piece of it. Heather Reams: I think the other piece is the what can be, the energy innovation, the advanced technology, the research and development pieces that are going into this, into universities that industry is putting in there into jobs. We’re especially thinking about university systems and whatnot. Heather Reams: But the idea of energy innovation, this is the future. We’re thinking about the future. People like me are innovators and investors. It’s where the industries are going. Wall Street’s there, or industry is there. We’re helping policy makers get there as well and get good ROI from the taxpayer. Jon Powers: Yeah, absolutely. No longer this is a emerging market, the clean energy market. It’s a mainstream play where you have significant capital moving from all versions of Wall Street to institutional investors into the space. Jon Powers: What’s interesting is you have, from a state perspective, some very strong… I think about Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, the governor South Carolina. Virginia even, it’s a democratic state, it’s traditionally been pretty conservative, just passed some really groundbreaking clean energy policies, getting a group like Dominion to actually move on these issues. It’s really fascinating to see this emergence that’s happening. Jon Powers: If we could flash ahead, I talk a lot on this show about 2030, because I think the next 10 years are so critical for us to solve these climate challenges, what do you sort of see over the next 10 years in the conservative space to help move these issues forward? Heather Reams: Yeah. I’m a pretty big advocate on taking advantage of opportunities. We’re in a political quandary right now, I guess, leading up to the election, but we also are in a kind of a disastrous situation in dealing with COVID. I think there’s some opportunity to talk about community preparedness and what that means beyond the solar and thinking about CHP or different kind of microgrids or distributed energy. And we’ve got Hurricane Sally just having hit the Gulf. Jon Powers: Sure, of course. Heather Reams: And we’ve had a number of hurricanes this year, the fires out west. I think that the electorate, and I think as a result of the policy makers, are in tune to how to plan for the future. I think there’s more of that. I’m not saying it’s the climate change and it’s the Celsius type of argument because I don’t know if that’s as effective as how are we planning for the future, and this is a role that’s appropriate role for government. I see that as a very big lens right now over the next couple of years. Jon Powers: Interesting. Heather Reams: That needs to be an undergirding. It’s becoming just more and more apparent to me, especially as we just see one challenge to our nation after the other coming our way. That’s one piece I think is important. Heather Reams: I think the other is how do we get out of the picking winners and losers? I don’t mean that in terms of the energy generation, but also of things being more tech neutral. Who knew that we’d be using Zoom even a year ago or anything, much less an iPhone 10 years ago? You don’t know. Heather Reams: That’s the the exciting part about innovation is we don’t know where it’s going, but having something more tech neutral, I think frees up Congress members to make decisions about getting out of what they’re for when those members need, that they need to be pro solar, but they also can be pro all the above. Giving that more tech neutral approach I think is there. Heather Reams: We also unfortunately have a problem with some members of the Republican party on tax credits and is there a giveaway? It’s considered government giveaway. This is actually proven to show it’s spurring good innovation investment. I don’t know how we get out that- Jon Powers: And jobs. Heather Reams: Yeah, and jobs. How do we get out of that line of what’s the appropriate role for government. And showing the success stories, I think we need some more education there about how to move forward. But those are some opportunities that I see. Jon Powers: We’re going to talk here in a second about National Clean Energy Week, but one of the things that we talk a lot the show is about my background is in policy, but I actually got into the finance space. Actually, there’s not a lot of policy makers that understand finance, and the ability to actually in this next phase of policies around clean energy is how to unleash the market. Jon Powers: I mean, there’s really a significant amount of progress right now in the sort of ESG space right now, where there’s significant funds moving in sort of record numbers every quarter. I mean, the head of research at Morningstar actually just reported recently that during this economic downturn, sustainability investing, so investing in things like clean energy, has not taken a downturn. Jon Powers: The numbers continue to be positive, and it’s making its way through a recession, and we’re going to come out of the back end with more capital moving in this market. So, how do you unleash that capital? I think interestingly you said it may be tech neutral, but really it’s not all about the public dollar. It’s about unleashing these private dollars to get some of the stuff moving forward. Heather Reams: For sure. I think it’s also, this is what I’ve observed on Capitol Hill over the last four and five years, is the message in the messenger. And then the messenger is coming through is someone who’s had an association who used to work for a democratic member of Congress. So, they’ve already had that lens of at a trade association, for instance, doing that. Heather Reams: I think we do need to have more of the people, probably your listeners, coming together in and briefing members. And it’s something certainly my organization would love to be part of, and being that new voice, new kind of voice, and getting out the same old, same old with trade associations. There’s nothing wrong with trade associations, but I. And the messengers sometimes are not going to be the right people to bring forward to Republican policy makers. It’s just a fact. Jon Powers: No, it’s a fact. I think having people who having been on the other side of the table, when you can come and say, we own a project in your district, it’s way more powerful than the head of a… nothing against lobbyists because I know you come with that background. Heather Reams: Oh yeah. Yeah, no. Jon Powers: It’s way more powerful than the person you saw the week before pitching another issue. Jon Powers: Let’s go to National Clean Energy Week for a second, which is a really amazing initiative. And you have such a breadth of sponsors. Talk a little bit about why you guys started National Clean Energy Week, sort of what’s the purpose, and how you got such an array of folks involved in this. Heather Reams: I came to CRES, and when you’re coming on as the new director, you’re supposed to bring in all these good ideas with you, fresh ideas. You kind of assess what’s there. So it’s like, okay, well where’s the awareness week for clean energy? And you have people around you saying, “Well, there’s Earth Day.” I’m like, “Ah, we’re Republicans. Earth Day?” You know? Jon Powers: Right, right. Heather Reams: Where can Republicans engage if we know that there’s some political challenges maybe with Earth Day? Jon Powers: Yep. Heather Reams: There’s a day or awareness week or month for like everything, right down to donuts and martinis. I couldn’t find one for clean energy or for really renewable energy, just couldn’t find anything. There’s climate week and looking at that, but just clean energy. Heather Reams: This is in 2017 when we have a new administration just coming into play with Trump and a lot of questions and new secretaries and a lot of talk about the economy and jobs. And I thought, economy, jobs, and clean energy, this is where it’s at. This is the dialogue. This is it. Heather Reams: So, we pulled together. I talked to a few friends at trade associations, the ones I said sometimes aren’t the best messengers, but for this, looking like this is the solar association, here’s the wind association, and making it also big tent. Who’s interested in lowering emissions? Who’s interested in Washington about lowering emissions? Nuclear is into that. So big tent, getting out of the politics and just thinking about big tent lowering emissions. Heather Reams: And we created a steering committee that are now with CRES Forum, which is our C3 arm. And 12 other organizations created the steering committee. And we had a number of calls. First of all, they’re like, who are you, and what do you want? It’s like, I really just want you to help me build this, help me create panels, help me bring people to the table. Heather Reams: People were kind of like, we’ll see it when we believe it, but now we’re in our fourth year, and it gets bigger and better every year. The undergirding this whole thing is one thing. Clean energy is good. Lowering emissions is good. Heather Reams: However you want to take or an organization wants to take that message forward and to expand upon, that’s up to them. That’s not National Clean Energy Week. That’s not what we need to do. We just want to create an opportunity to create awareness about the value of clean energy. And there is a lot of value as we know in clean energy advancement. Jon Powers: Yeah. And it’s such a diverse group of speakers. I think folks should check out nationalcleanenergyweek.org. If you haven’t signed up, definitely sign up. This is coming out sort of parallel with that. And you’ve got folks like Paul Tonko, who’ve been a great advocate on the left, and Senator Murkowski on the right talking about these issues. Jon Powers: I think it’s very, very exciting and really an important dialogue. Your main audience here is Washington. It’s like, how do you sort of focus the message on getting those folks to take action? Heather Reams: Yeah, in Washington, but also we’ve partnered with some state groups as well to bring some of the more local issues into place, because we all know what’s happening. Federal affects state, and state can affect federal, right? Jon Powers: Of course. Heather Reams: And you’re thinking about issues like net metering or citing issues that we’ve had, property rights issues we’re bringing into this year. From a corporate but also right of center, how Republicans can engage in these issues is a lot of what we’re doing. We know there’s a lot of support on the left from these issues, generally expansion of clean energy, but we’ve got to also bring that same message and messenger down to the state and local levels as well. Heather Reams: So, we’ve got some case studies in states, from Colorado and Texas, from the Midwest and citing issues, from the Southeast and net metering issues. We’ve actually got a little something for everybody. But yes, then we also look at a higher level, talking about finance and investment for instance, and talking about innovation kind of at a national level, since there is where conversations tend to happen, it can be most influential to get policy changed and get it downstream. Jon Powers: Yeah. What a diverse group of organizations involved covering all spectrums, I think all parts of the industry. It’s great. It definitely is worth flipping through the participating organizations just to get a sense of the diversity of voices that are coming to the table on this. So, thank you so much for organizing. It’s such an important conversation. Heather Reams: Yeah. And we really want to invite your listeners. There’s a lot of ways to engage. One, there’s a policymaker symposium that we do every year. This year with COVID, everything’s virtual. But with that means that we get to reach more people, and we’ve put a five day symposium on as opposed to one day. That’s really all our major programming we’re putting together in one place. Heather Reams: But a lot of people are having events in their own areas. My goal eventually would be if you are doing something in the clean energy space, you’re just taking this week, even working with your staff and saying, we’re doing good things here, we’re doing good things in clean energy, and making it just a place for us to pause and remember the value that we’re doing and being that mission-driven. Heather Reams: Some of us are still mission-driven, what we’re doing. And it’s nice to reflect upon that the good work you’re doing and then sharing it with people you know. Your children, I mentioned that the top of our conversation, it matters. I tell them about what mommy does, and they’re very proud. Jon Powers: I challenge everybody to listen at four o’clock on Monday who are survive, thrive and dive panel where I’m talking with some great finance folks, but there’s just phenomenal panels and a lot to learn. Looking forward to today, we can actually fly in again and advocate around this event. Jon Powers: Just to step back, let’s look out sort of post November, because obviously the whole country is sort of locked up thinking about what’s going to happen in November, what’s ahead for America on these issues? And will we really begin to see sort of bipartisanship begin to emerge on clean energy and climate policy? Heather Reams: Well, I think what we have to find those common denominators. I’ve talked about the economic piece of it, and I think getting America back to work is a pretty important part. I think what we’re seeing now is we’re seeing a lot of research on and information about how robust the energy sector, clean energy sector has been, how it’s been growing and outpacing the other growth in other areas of the economy, and how it’s taken a beating in some areas. But also it’s been fairly resilient, too. How do we get people back to work with tomorrow’s jobs? Heather Reams: The clean industry sector, it’s not the only place, but if you were thinking about getting Americans back to work, whether it’s in the rural areas or the urban areas, at every state and every district in America, clean energy is there. And I mean, that is- Jon Powers: It’s amazing. Heather Reams: … pretty amazing and exciting for anybody who wants to problem solve. And we’d like to thank our elected leaders. We get excited by that. Jon Powers: Yeah. Hope we can get back to that after the election. Heather Reams: Yeah. The politics right now, you have to have pretty thick skin right now. But on the other side of that, we know that Americans want to see something done. And I think the polling that CRES has, my organization has done over the last couple of years, Republicans are there on clean energy, and they’re really coming around on climate change. Heather Reams: So, culture wars are really falling aside. I think it’s how we get there is where you’re starting to see the disagreements. It’s not the climate and the science. I’ll set aside the president. I know a lot of people will say the president says whatever, but everything’s still going on. There’s two of Pennsylvania Avenue. Jon Powers: Right. Heather Reams: Yeah, but I think there’s just a lot that’s happening, and people want it. I mean, consumers want it. So, we know consumers, they have a lot of power and voters. When they want something, the market usually responds. That’s what’s going to happen. Jon Powers: Yeah, I agree. Heather Reams: It’s just being there, being ready, and educating and advocating. Jon Powers: Oh, excellent. Well, we hope to continue to share this message and have a similar conversation next year around National Clean Energy Week. Jon Powers: One final question I’ve got for you, Heather, I ask all my guests. If you could go back to yourself in Virginia Beach, your senior year high school, or when you’re graduating from college in Washington, and could sit down and just have a conversation, what would you tell yourself? Heather Reams: I would tell myself to be a little bit more patient with the- Jon Powers: Oh, interesting. Heather Reams: … the process. Yeah. I said, “These lobbyists look pretty slick,” and you just want to do something really fast sometimes. And it takes time. It takes time. You got to build, you got to build, you got to build your knowledge. Heather Reams: I mean, what I know now and how Washington works and to be effective is pretty incredible, not everything, but compared to where I was. We all wish we had the knowledge we did when we were younger, but there’s a patience part of this, I think, that I would’ve benefited from. Jon Powers: Yeah. Interesting. Jon Powers: Well, Heather, first of all, thank you so much for the time. And thanks for being a guest here at Experts Only. Heather Reams: I am thrilled to be with you. I hope we visit again soon. Jon Powers: Absolutely. And again, I challenge all of our listeners to go to nationalcleanenergyweek.org and sign up to listen to some of these amazing conversations this week, and hopefully next year, take action and fly in to advocate for some of these issues. Jon Powers: I want to thank your team and thank Ross particularly for helping to put this together, and our producer Carly Battin as always for helping to put together these episodes. For more episodes, you can go to cleancapital.com. As always, I look forward to continuing the conversation. Thanks. Jon Powers: Thanks for listening in today’s conversation. Find more episodes on cleancapital.com, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe and leave us a five star review. We look forward to continuing our conversation on energy, innovation, and finance with you.